Tanky Character

[AndreSSC]

As someone who prefers to be a tank in every game, someone who takes almost no damage and that protects the others, I feel we have little to none tank-based skills and talents. Has anyone been bothered and pointed that out, besides me? Is there any planning on improving that aspect of the game?

Besides that and completely out of topic, I think it would be really nice to have a healing support skill.

 

[GarlicJelly]

As someone who prefers to be a tank in every game, someone who takes almost no damage and that protects the others, I feel we have little to none tank-based skills and talents. Has anyone been bothered and pointed that out, besides me? Is there any planning on improving that aspect of the game?

Besides that and completely out of topic, I think it would be really nice to have a healing support skill.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest tank based skills before but when I played 4 players on Story mode I kind of wished there were some kind of tank ability I could use since I love the melee part of the game but I was getting completely destroyed by the enemies high damage and numbers. I think one of the reasons there aren't any specific tank skills is because of Arcade mode. If you could pick up a skill that makes you take less damage then you'd basically make Arcade mode easier. I'm not really sure how you'd fit tank specific skills into the game without throwing off the balance in Arcade mode. :/

 

[AndreSSC]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest tank based skills before but when I played 4 players on Story mode I kind of wished there were some kind of tank ability I could use since I love the melee part of the game but I was getting completely destroyed by the enemies high damage and numbers. I think one of the reasons there aren't any specific tank skills is because of Arcade mode. If you could pick up a skill that makes you take less damage then you'd basically make Arcade mode easier. I'm not really sure how you'd fit tank specific skills into the game without throwing off the balance in Arcade mode. :/

I thought about Arcade mode as well, but think with me: if you pick up a skill that makes you take less damage, you are giving up skills that would make you deal more damage; if you are dealing less damage, you'll take more time to clear floors. If well-thought, it can be balanced! I really think it would be a great addition to the game and multiplayer, along with healing skills (like a healing shrine, summoning a healing monster or something like that).

 

[GarlicJelly]

I thought about Arcade mode as well, but think with me: if you pick up a skill that makes you take less damage, you are giving up skills that would make you deal more damage; if you are dealing less damage, you'll take more time to clear floors. If well-thought, it can be balanced! I really think it would be a great addition to the game and multiplayer, along with healing skills (like a healing shrine, summoning a healing monster or something like that).

I don't think that if you put points into taking less damage you'll nessecary get slower clear speeds. If you just focus on a damage skill until you get extra points to put into the tank skill then you wouldn't lose any damage at all so you'd keep your fast clear speed and also take less damage.

Having any sort of healing spell in the game would most likely ruin the whole point of Arcade mode since HP is supposed to be rare. I think the different healing options in Arcade mode seem fine, at least for it's current length.

 

[AndreSSC]

I don't think that if you put points into taking less damage you'll nessecary get slower clear speeds. If you just focus on a damage skill until you get extra points to put into the tank skill then you wouldn't lose any damage at all so you'd keep your fast clear speed and also take less damage.

Having any sort of healing spell in the game would most likely ruin the whole point of Arcade mode since HP is supposed to be rare. I think the different healing options in Arcade mode seem fine, at least for it's current length.

But we already have a skill that raises your defense and makes you take less damage lol I'm talking about creating more defense-related skills and talents! About talents, they would definitely make you clear floors slower: if you have a talent that gives you +5 defense instead of a talent that gives you +5 attack, you are trading damage you would deal for damage you would take.

About healing: yes, HP is supposed to be rare, but you would give up other skills in other to have a healing one. You would give up damage skills, defense skills, and everything else. You shouldn't think only of putting those skills randomly, but of a well-thought balanced process, considering all of those aspects. If someone wants to, it's possible to implement and suit everything for the Arcade mode!

 

[HexZyle]

People tend to forget the main role of a tank in a co-op based game, especially when suggesting it into games such as these where there are no "auto-attacks" and no "100% accuracy" attacks, where damage is avoided with skill, not with superior arbitrary numbers. This isn't a game where you just line up your four characters with the assigned "tank" sitting closest to the enemy so by nature he's going to be the first they hit, whenever they attack. This is a game where players move around, and monsters attack and miss a lot.

I'm bringing over my experience from Spiral Knights (in relation to Arcade mode) since it seems like the focus of game design is almost identical. There is no "tank" build. (And there is no healing) There is some armor that allows you to soak up more damage, but equipping it means you aren't getting the massive attack (we're talking 30% damage increase and/or 50% faster charging, depending on the equipment) bonus from wearing other armor so it's basically nonviable.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/109545
However, particular weapons (such the Haze Bombs, specifically designed for inflicting various debuffs to enemies over a large area, but they do no upfront damage) due to how they function (attempting to apply the debuff to all enemies in its radius once every half-second) tend to aggro everything in their radius very quickly and maintain aggro for a decent amount of time. This is what a tank's role is.

The main purpose of a tank is not to take damage. The main purpose of a tank is to prevent the party members from taking damage.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnAdventurerIsYou

The Tank: Unless your party can kill everything in sight in one hit, you are going to need someone to soak up the damage those pesky monsters do. To make sure he's the target of all incoming pain, the Tank has the ability to "taunt" enemies into attacking him and ignoring the party members actually hurting them.

• Before MMORPGs introduced the aggro system, the Tank was simply the class with the strongest armor and most Hit Points. These types usually stood at the front of the party in order to ensure they absorbed most of the damage, and often had high damage capability of their own, being more Mighty Glacier than pure Meat Shield. Nowadays, this archetype is often conflated with the "Melee DPS" class, and straddles the line between Tank and DPS.
• The Meat Shield: The classic form of the tank, this guy has the highest amount of hitpoints and therefore can take hits that would kill a squishier character. Actual defensive abilities are optional.
• The Mitigation Tank: Sometimes distinct from the previous option in that he has less health, but the enemy would not do as much damage to him. He is highly likely to wear plate armor, if the game is in the fantasy genre, and often substitutes defensive power for offense. Typically has abilities to bolster his defences further or retaliate against the enemy.
• The Avoidance Tank: This tank specializes in avoiding damage altogether, rather than absorbing it, either through superior dodging and parrying skills, or sometimes through passing the damage on to a different character. These tanks are often borderline Fragile Speedsters.
• The Regenerator: This version of tank is reliant on keeping himself alive through self-healing capability. However, this is typically insufficient against the most powerful foes and a healer is still required.
• The Magic Tank: In some games, the characters with the best defense against physical attacks tend to have the worst defense against magic attacks. The Magic Tank is a tank type who's specifically designed to be able to "tank" magic damage. Magic Tanks are frequently closer to the Spellcaster archetype than the Fighter archetype.

See if you can guess which sort of tank best suits the game mechanics of Secrets of Grindea (without breaking Arcade mode balance)

 

[AndreSSC]

People tend to forget the main role of a tank in a co-op based game, especially when suggesting it into games such as these where there are no "auto-attacks" and no "100% accuracy" attacks, where damage is avoided with skill, not with superior arbitrary numbers. This isn't a game where you just line up your four characters with the assigned "tank" sitting closest to the enemy so by nature he's going to be the first they hit, whenever they attack. This is a game where players move around, and monsters attack and miss a lot.

I'm bringing over my experience from Spiral Knights (in relation to Arcade mode) since it seems like the focus of game design is almost identical. There is no "tank" build. (And there is no healing) There is some armor that allows you to soak up more damage, but equipping it means you aren't getting the massive attack (we're talking 30% damage increase and/or 50% faster charging, depending on the equipment) bonus from wearing other armor so it's basically nonviable.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/109545
However, particular weapons (such the Haze Bombs, specifically designed for inflicting various debuffs to enemies over a large area, but they do no upfront damage) due to how they function (attempting to apply the debuff to all enemies in its radius once every half-second) tend to aggro everything in their radius very quickly and maintain aggro for a decent amount of time. This is what a tank's role is.

The main purpose of a tank is not to take damage. The main purpose of a tank is to prevent the party members from taking damage.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnAdventurerIsYou


See if you can guess which sort of tank best suits the game mechanics of Secrets of Grindea (without breaking Arcade mode balance)

But I'm talking exactly about adding new mechanics to the game. Defense-related talents and skills so a tank can, as an example, take the damage if someone in the party gets hit.

 

[Kheb]

I think that a typical tanking build doesn't really fit this game since you should be avoiding damage at all times. Though I could see some potential in reworking some talents.

About Quick Reflexes in the folowing Thread:
http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-discuss-talents.5257/

Auto PG is cheap, however it's only a suggestion and still a proc. I'd like to see it granting you more bonus on PG to motivate players to actually use it and become better at this game. Another suggestion is change the Talent to something like Parry, once shielded (or not) you can get a proc to negate damage % of the damage and give a minor speed/crit/damage bonus. Might need to add some limitations like you can only Parry attacks that hit the front of you character, etc.

As a skill suggestion I'm thinking about something like Shield Bash, dealing (shieldHP*Attack)/100 damage while keeping your shield up. Also an aggro skill would be interesting in combination with something like Frost Nova. Though, Frost Nova needs to be reworked to Become more like Frosty Winds with way more AoE and duration (trading damage in return, obviously).

Before changes like this I don't really see Tanking having any use in this game, unfortunately (I like playing suppor-ish kinda rolls like Tank too ;D!) Also I think this will enhance team play a lot but also make Arcade so much easier so it'll need a cautious approach.

 

[HexZyle]

Guardian Shield
Applies the "Guarded" status to all players within a short range of the caster. The caster themself does not receive the "Guarded" status, instead receives the "Guarding" status. These two statuses are mutually exclusive (You cannot be both "Guarded" and "Guarding")
When struck by an unblocked attack, a player who has the "Guarded" status instead redirects the damage to the caster.
The damage is initially taken by the caster's shield. If the caster's shield is broken, they themselves take the damage. The ability does not trigger if the received damage would kill the caster. This ability can be combined with the defensive support ability to reduce damage.

• No Charge: Lasts 15 seconds. Small AoE. Redirects 25% of damage. The redirected portion of damage is not first reduced by the receiver's armor, it is only reduced by the caster's armor, and only if it was not absorbed by the shield.
• Bronze Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 50% of damage. The caster's shield takes 30% reduced damage from Redirected damage.
• Silver Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 90% of damage. The caster's shield takes 40% reduced damage, which is increased to 60% damage reduction if the caster was shielding upon taking a Redirected hit. Redirected damage becomes Perfect Shield-able for the caster, with the regular Perfect Shield benefits (plus a holographic effect displayed over the player who was Perfect Shielded by the caster)
• Gold Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 100% of damage. The caster's shield takes 50% reduced damage, which is increased to 75% damage reduction if the caster was shielding upon taking a Redirected hit. Damage is first reduced by the receiver's armor, before being redirected. Any received damage during the ability is added to the caster's next attack (Saved damage is cleared if the caster re-casts the spell)

 

[Kheb]

Guardian Shield
Applies the "Guarded" status to all players within a short range of the caster. The caster themself does not receive the "Guarded" status, instead receives the "Guarding" status. These two statuses are mutually exclusive (You cannot be both "Guarded" and "Guarding")
When struck by an unblocked attack, a player who has the "Guarded" status instead redirects the damage to the caster.
The damage is initially taken by the caster's shield. If the caster's shield is broken, they themselves take the damage. The ability does not trigger if the received damage would kill the caster. This ability can be combined with the defensive support ability to reduce damage.

• No Charge: Lasts 15 seconds. Small AoE. Redirects 25% of damage. The redirected portion of damage is notfirst reduced by the receiver's armor, it is only reduced by the caster's armor, and only if it was not absorbed by the shield.
• Bronze Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 50% of damage. The caster's shield takes 30% reduced damage from Redirected damage.
• Silver Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 90% of damage. The caster's shield takes 40% reduced damage, which is increased to 60% damage reduction if the caster was shielding upon taking a Redirected hit. Redirected damage becomes Perfect Shield-able for the caster, with the regular Perfect Shield benefits (plus a holographic effect displayed over the player who was Perfect Shielded by the caster)
• Gold Charge: Increased AoE. Redirects 100% of damage. The caster's shield takes 50% reduced damage, which is increased to 75% damage reduction if the caster was shielding upon taking a Redirected hit. Damage is first reduced by the receiver's armor, before being redirected. Any received damage during the ability is added to the caster's next attack (Saved damage is cleared if the caster re-casts the spell)

While this should improve the possibilities on Tank builds, I disagree on the number crushing like you said yourself.

People tend to forget the main role of a tank in a co-op based game, especially when suggesting it into games such as these where there are no "auto-attacks" and no "100% accuracy" attacks, where damage is avoided with skill, not with superior arbitrary numbers. This isn't a game where you just line up your four characters with the assigned "tank" sitting closest to the enemy so by nature he's going to be the first they hit, whenever they attack. This is a game where players move around, and monsters attack and miss a lot.

However, particular weapons (such the Haze Bombs, specifically designed for inflicting various debuffs to enemies over a large area, but they do no upfront damage) due to how they function (attempting to apply the debuff to all enemies in its radius once every half-second) tend to aggro everything in their radius very quickly and maintain aggro for a decent amount of time. This is what a tank's role is.

The main purpose of a tank is not to take damage. The main purpose of a tank is to prevent the party members from taking damage.

Also a Tanks job is to take the least damage as possible. I think the number crushing is way to hard since a Tank should have reduced damage due to armor not due to number crushing. My suggestion is to allow damage reduction by both the caster and the damage receiver but remove the number crushing. I like the bonus from shielding, as well as the damage bonus so you can actually also use this as a DPS build too.
Another job for the Tank is crowd control, stunning, slowing, silencing enemies. In this game I see AoE movement speed debuff as one of the strongest damage tanking abilities and I think we should emphasize crowd control over damage reduction/sharing due to preventing damage>reducing damage. While practically it's quite impossible to prevent damage, Guardian Shield is technically a very bad pick to make. Frost Nova>>>>>>>>>>>>>Guardian Shield.