"Magic sucks!"

Own

Moderator
I wouldn't call being able to do 181 damage with the press of a single button, uncharged, at level 2 sucky.

Or 414 damage at level 6 charged, with a DoT proc. :p Completely safe damage, requiring getting nowhere near the enemy.

99% of people who think magic is useless, underpowered, etc aren't bothering to piece together magic gear from the shops or Pumpkin Woods chests, I think.

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The only real downfall magic has is not having Talents that allow it to keep it's Energy going, but I'm sure Talents will be revisited someday.
 

Teylor

Green Slime
I think this is a little bit one-sided and pro magic. You have a full MATK set in this example. That means you have no defense, no health and your auto hits do not deal any significant damage. So if you run out of mana, the only thing you can do is run around and wait for recharge and hope nothing hits you.

On the other side, melee characters have some pieces of equipment that provide attackspeed/attack and also defense/health. And attack does not only affect normal attack damage, but also combat-skill damage. So ATK pays much more off then MATK.

And like I said in another thread: normal attacks dont require you to charge something up. In order to get sufficient range, high damage and high chance for status effects, you are forced to use at least silver charge with your magic and the charge time can be quite deadly if positioned bad or surrounded by enemies.
 

Kheb

Green Slime
If I press z I still have way more dps. Though, the considerably slow but save damage (as long as the mobs don't get in range) you get is quite good and better than I expected. Earrings of Balance are better, they'll give you +20 m.att and a Flower Whip gives you +55 m.att. Now I've opened SoG I see myself wearing an 'Ice Crystal Pendant' +10 m.att and a special effect (stronger ice spells), somebody out there that knows some numbers?

However with the current available talents, I'm curious what the damage will be with +10% m.att from Intelligence, +30% m.att from Last Spark, 30% m.att from Mana Burn, +5% m.att from Adaptable. You'll need to hit level 17 for this to happen.

If somebody could (ffs) confirm how these buffs will stack you could reach somewhere between 175%-195% m.att.
 
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Own

Moderator
And like I said in another thread: normal attacks dont require you to charge something up.

Neither do the first damage numbers in any picture. Those were an uncharged, spammable tap. Meaning at level 2 you can do 181 damage with a single tap. Level 6, 229.

This is before factoring the talents Intelligence, Manaburn, Criticals, DoT or anything else.

You don't need defense or attack speed as a mage because ideally you're not getting near enemies to attack them, or be attacked by them.

Magic provides immensely more safety than melee does, people just don't tend to value safety that much because death has no consequence and health orbs are generous.

Two level 6 taps are enough to kill a boar at a distance. Three kill a Halloweed. Five kill a Pecko, which is exactly 100% off your Energy. 15-20 kill Gundam, which is about 3-4 cycles. Again, assuming no talents, crits or anything else. Intelligence would add 20 damage per fireball at level 6, Manaburn 60.

There are melee builds that could out-DPS this, but... why would you want magic to be on par with them in every way? If magic does the exact same DPS as melee, there's no reason to melee - melee means getting near enemies, shielding them, getting hit. Magic is the safer option.
 

Ren

Green Slime
Yeah, spending some time just trying out different magic and melee builds in story mode I found them all fun and viable. There were skills I found harder for me to use, but not that had trouble killing as a lack of damage output. Generally focusing on melee was my preference in story... but in arcade, where healing is so scarce... the safety of magic is reigning supreme for me. It is obvious from streams/videos that some excel at arcade with melee. I assume based on the varying success of player builds that what you find better or worse is more a matter of personal preference than any other factor.
 

Kheb

Green Slime
Very true indeed. I usually play magic support-ish kinda rolls in games, trying to make them viable as possible. However I saw certain talents and I was like, let's try to push this game in DPS. Unfortunately without any vital fundamental information on frame data and interactions of skills and talents (and Perfect Guard) between those it's hard to tell which build is better. I usually play with my little brother, he went full Summon build which made grinding easy time on low level which is quite needed to pull off my build. On Arcade I find Insect Swarm the safest approach, however my bro and I suck at Arcade xD.

I have asked my questions on the 'vital fundamental information' here, might add some more in the future :p (I'll keep spamming it, I want it badly, sorry): http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/some-technical-questons.5182/
 

Teylor

Green Slime
Neither do the first damage numbers in any picture. Those were an uncharged, spammable tap. Meaning at level 2 you can do 181 damage with a single tap. Level 6, 229.

They are not spamable. They require you to pay lots of mana.Take fireball for example. It costs 20 energy uncharged. With no EP upgrades, you can cast 5 fireballs. And uncharged it wont probably do more damage then my normal hit.

This is before factoring the talents Intelligence, Manaburn, Criticals, DoT or anything else.

Well, melee combat also has those kind of stats:

- Crit: Same as magic, but it effects not just combat skills, but also normal attacks, giving you more options to fight
- Strength: Equivalent to intelligence (10% ATK increase)
- Insult to Infury: 30% ATK increase if the enemy has any status effect. Combine that with Static Touch, Chilling Touch, Burning Weapon and Shadow Clone (or anything else that may give the enemy a status effect) and you have an guarenteed 30% damage buff all the time. Without any other requirements like under 50% EP or low health
- Last breath: Another 30% ATK buff if you manage to keep your health under 20%
- Arcane Weapon: Cast any spell (like static touch) and gain 15% ATK boost for next normal attack. If you have a silver or gold charge, you can get an increase of 30-45% with that. Works perfect with static touch, even without having any MATK
- Backhander: Heck, another 30% ATK increase when chaining attacks
- Fencer: More attackspeed is never bad

On the other side, many magic based talents only decrease EP useage. Clearly shows that melee benefits from talents much more in my opinion. Even a magic talent like arcane weapon is more beneficial for melee users.

You don't need defense or attack speed as a mage because ideally you're not getting near enemies to attack them, or be attacked by them.

Well, I played lots of arena and there are also bosses or small rooms filled with enemies. In theory, magic is great, but there are enough situations where it has to many disadvantages.

Magic provides immensely more safety than melee does, people just don't tend to value safety that much because death has no consequence and health orbs are generous.

I dont agree with this. Especially with one-hand sword I can get mobility skills (Piercing Dash). Even when cornered, I can easily get out of every situations. Its also useful in bossfights or in crowded rooms. I think this provides more survivability then any magic spell (and also does great damage in a huge AOE, even at lvl 1).

Two level 6 taps are enough to kill a boar at a distance. Three kill a Halloweed. Five kill a Pecko, which is exactly 100% off your Energy. 15-20 kill Gundam, which is about 3-4 cycles. Again, assuming no talents, crits or anything else. Intelligence would add 20 damage per fireball at level 6, Manaburn 60.

A silver charged blade furry was enough for me to kill a boar. Or 3 non-charged piercing dashs. And even if I take a hit, it wont be much damage thanks to high defense/health.

There are melee builds that could out-DPS this, but... why would you want magic to be on par with them in every way? If magic does the exact same DPS as melee, there's no reason to melee - melee means getting near enemies, shielding them, getting hit. Magic is the safer option.

Well, I think both types should be on par in many things, or magic should have real advantages over melee and melee over magic in some aspects. But right now, I see the advantage in nearly every aspect for melee

- Damage: Thanks to the normal attacks + high damage from combat skills, you are at least on paar with magic when it comes to damage. Not to mention all those talents.
- Survivability: Most ATK equipment also provides Defense and/or Health. So you can deal lots of damage, but still can tank quite a bit
- Mobility: Non existant in the magic trees, while at least one-hand offers piercing dash and dodging strike
- Range/AoE: Combat Skills have alot of range. Even bigger then most of magic spells. Piercing dash hits everything in a huge line, Spirit Slash everything in an enormous AoE, Titans Throw also everything in a line, including an AoE at impact point, Whirlslash also in an AoE around you (and being able to move on higher charge)
- Status Effects: Thanks to Burning Weapon, Chilling Touch, Static Touch and Shadow Clone, status effects are available for melee users. I only see a slight advantage for magic users here, because the probability is usually much higher to slow/freeze/stun/burn an enemy.
 
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Kheb

Green Slime
Shadow Clone is without doubt the strongest spell in combination with melee talents and crit. You basically one shot everything and due to high chances of proc with Crippling Blast you have almost guaranteed (almost, I've calculated chances of having a proc after first hit, Static Touch Stun also calculated, it's about 73%) triggering of Insult to Injury and Backhander. (Hypotheses is that this stacks exponential) Shadow Clone+Backhander and Insult to Injury increases damage by: 1*1,3*1,3+1*0,2*1,3*1,3+0,17*1,3*1,3=178,7%. Adding Crit Chance, in my case I have 20% crit chance: 1,69+1,69*0,2*2+0,338+0,338*0,2*2+0,2873+0,2873*0,2*2=3,24. (Thinking of it now, I should invest in Brutality) Adding Brutality (I'm not going write it all out again): 3,40. Due to rarely hitting below 20% Health I have no investment into Last Breath. But as you can see it adds up quite nicely.

Join the Discussion ;D!
http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/i...w-to-improve-those-and-enhance-gameplay.5262/
 
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taltamir

Rabby
1. The demonstration spell for this example is the Fireball, which is high damage to a SINGLE TARGET. Fireball is one of the less awful spells too, since it actually manages to deal more damage per single hit than melee basic attack (not special attacks), but most spells deal less damage per single hit than melee. Furthermore, fireball is crippled by the fact it has no AoE. Your ability to hit a single low level enemy for high damage is irrelevant, the question is your ability to fight a swarm of powerful enemies. Whether in arena or normal mode.

2. This build has 0 defenses, all offense. The ability to stack damage boosters together does not equal a viable build. Also, this build seems to be focused on "finding exactly what you want and need"

3. The biggest and most significant problem with magic is the energy system. The basic attack is always a melee attack and you can spam it indefinitely. Meanwhile magic can be cast very few times, you spend most of your time as a mage running around waiting for your EP to recharge so you can hit the enemies again. Or you hit them with a melee weapon. but the problem is that the weapons that have good matk have horrible melee attack

Honestly, if the basic attack of magic was free and didn't cost energy then it would be at least a viable alternative. as it is, except for a few spells (flamethrower is decent) most spells are complete and utter doodoo. Even with a good spell like flamethrower you still gotta be very careful about your EP expenditure.
 
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Ardeof

Rabby
Honestly, if the basic attack of magic was free and didn't cost energy+ then it would be at least a viable alternative. as it is, except for a few spells (flamethrower is decent) most spells are complete and utter doodoo. Even with a good spell like flamethrower you still gotta be very careful about your EP expenditure.

Flamethrower is good. Ice Spikes is good, but not amazing. Frosty Friend is great with groups, and mediocre with single target damage. Still a great defense/offense mixture, with its weakness of needing to defend occasionally. Plants can be quite strong, Earth fist is quite good damage if you're skilled enough to time it. I do think the Area of Effect could be larger. Meteor is situational, but one of the better single target boss killing options. Lightning is very underwhelming, but the cloud can be of use at times. I suppose the static shock skill can be okay in certain situations. Overall Magic is no worse than melee skills which also have some underwhelming options.
 

taltamir

Rabby
Flamethrower is good. Ice Spikes is good, but not amazing. Frosty Friend is great with groups, and mediocre with single target damage. Still a great defense/offense mixture, with its weakness of needing to defend occasionally. Plants can be quite strong, Earth fist is quite good damage if you're skilled enough to time it. I do think the Area of Effect could be larger. Meteor is situational, but one of the better single target boss killing options. Lightning is very underwhelming, but the cloud can be of use at times. I suppose the static shock skill can be okay in certain situations. Overall Magic is no worse than melee skills which also have some underwhelming options.
Flamethrower is literally the only good magic, because its damage is obscenely high enough to make for a unique and viable playstyle.

The others are all bad. They take up way too much energy per shot, tend to not hit as many enemies as a good sword swing, and deal way too little damage. On top of that there is the anti synergy where you need to sacrifice both DEF and ATK to get a decent MATK going, which is a huge problem because of the EP requirement of spells.

Can a single spell on a single enemy deal decent damage compared to a basic melee attack? sure (although that ignores the fact that melee has special melee "spells" too). But that doesn't magically make magic not be pure unadulterated awful.

Fireball - decent single enemy damage per hit... except ridiculously too much EP cost and only hits one enemy meaning overall damage is vastly lower compared to the spamable sword swings, at a minimum it needs to explode with an AoE of a short sword.

Meteor - even more expensive than fireball, AoE way way too small, takes too long to land so enemies move. gimmicky and impractical

Flame thrower - literally the only useful combat spell in the game. deals awesome damage and on a decent AoE spread somwhere between 1h and 2h weapon.

Ice spikes - too much EP cost. not enough range or damage

Frost nova - inferior in every single way to 2H weapon. Damage too low, costs too much EP, AoE comparable to 2H.

Frosty friend - ridiculously OP. possibly the most useful and powerful skill in the game... however its a pet not a spell, you have no real control over it, you toggle it on once and then it just does its own thing. I have it on every melee build.

Earth spike - Takes too long to cast and aim. Excellent range. Damage and AoE is ok, but you just can't spam it like you can melee, not to mention the EP cost. The excellent range and aim makes it decent enough alternative for arcade where you sacrifice DPS for range in early levels, but later on you just lack the EP to spam it fast enough to not be slaughtered

summon plant - way too much EP cost, not mobile, not enough damage, it even says its gimmickly

Insect swarm - way too expensive in EP, way too low damage. excellent range

Chain lightning - pathetic damage, too expensive in EP. excellent range though.

Cloud strike - another uncontrolled summon. not really a combat spell. You can call it a spell, but you could also call things like melee skills spells too. its just a name. the fact is the character is not slinging spells. you toggle it once and it stays on forever doing its own thing. I have it on every melee build.

Static touch - this is a melee skill not a spell. all it does is buff melee damage. Except because its a spell it costs way too much EP and requires way too much micromanagement (gotta keep on recharging the cubes). This needs to be a support spell.
Magic here can be summed up with "requires higher skill to use, deals less damage (except for flamethrower / single target), and spend most of your time waiting for mana to recharge"
In arcade mode, it is extra bad because of its scaling, in normal mode it is bad because you can stack so much on melee that it would be vastly superior (huge AoE that sets many enemies on fire and freezes them per hit, and then gets even more damage!)
The talents btw seem to focus on "alternate between different attack spells" or "alternate magic and melee" which is horrible due to both lack of skill points and buttons.

Now, I am not saying the game is bad... rather, I just focus on melee because I pretty much have to, because it is vastly vastly superior

Also, melee actually FLOWS well. with melee you need to time the enemy moves, block or dodge and retaliate, and you can spam it as much as you want, the only limit is that there is a fraction of a second between each attack so better time it well.

With magic there is none of that, you shoot enemies at range a couple of times, and then you are out of EP and are back to being a warrior with horribly mismatched gear. If magic actually worked like melee where each element had a primary attack that replaced your primary attack when equipped, and said primary attack was somewhat balanced, then yea it could have worked out.
 
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ark626

Moderator
XDD Like in every RPG you have also to decide what you want to Play.
Either you are a mage damage dealer, then you rely mostly on skills like flamethrower, thunder, Snow friend, etc.
Or you Play more in swordmanship, you can even Combine them but then the skills arent as strong, but you have more variety on the Play style.

In General Magic relies, as described above, from the gear that is equipped, and also on the skilling of the pet.
But to see, that Magic isnt useless, check out the YouTube Plays on arcade mode, of different People.
This Shows you pretty much how to use it. In General i saw not very much Players, have this speedy playstyle in arcade. In General it seems to be only really applicable in storymode because of the health restoration there.

Also you have the ability to create a set on your own, there are also Setups that mix skills, so you can Switch styles as required, slow and charging against slow heavy enemies, fast spamming against fast weaker enemies.

I personally use i.E. Spirit Slash as fast attack against weak, hordelike enemies, while using FIREBALL against heavy enemies.

In combination with quickcharging by perfect guard you have even more combinational possiblities
 
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Bardic_Knowledge

Green Slime
My magic-based character is technically a "summoner." I spend most encounters running around attacks while my cloud and snowlem kill everything. I've only swung my weapon against an enemy (and not, say, a barrel) four times.

If I need to, though, I summon plants and bugs. Though the bug swarm is pretty terrible, because if you miss even slightly it fails to do anything.
 

taltamir

Rabby
Either you are a mage damage dealer,
The problem is that this is false. A mage is not a damage dealer, a mage is not a glass canon. it is a glass nerf gun. (unless you use flamethrower)

Mages are not only less durable, and have to deal with the awful energy system, they also deal low damage with the exception of one single spell, flamethrower.

The example in the first post does not show DPS, it shows "damage from one attack to one enemy". It ignores attack rate, it ignores AoE.
that is not a spell. do you mean cloud strike (a summon) or chain lightning (worst spell in the game)
Snow friend
Snow friend is the best spell in the game and is suitable for everyone, whether melee or not. However, it is not something YOU are doing. you just summon it once and then it does its own thing helping you.

Or you Play more in swordmanship, you can even Combine them but then the skills arent as strong, but you have more variety on the Play style.
Combining the two actually makes you massively stronger, but only because you insist on calling summons a "mage character". when it isn't, it is a third thing.

But to see, that Magic isnt useless
The only magic that is not utterly and completely useless is flamethrower and summons and that one melee buff.

The thing is, this argument is a matter of semantics on "what is a mage". You say "summons make you a mage therefore the magic system is good". But summons are not limited to those who attack with magic, everyone can easily use them without detracting from whatever build they are making.

The ultimate issue is that if you go down the list of spells (that is, skills in the tab labeled spells. not including support tab) you have:
1 good attack spell, flamethrower (which makes it a viable alternative to melee, not op but not too weak).
2 summon spells (not really a mage experience, available to everyone, very op)
1 buff to melee (this should be a melee skill rather than a spell)
8 awful useless doodoo spells.

of those 4 good "spells", 3 of them are actually most useful for melee characters (the 2 summons and the melee buff)

Arguing semantics on what the definition of the word "mage" is missing the point, I explicitly went spell by spell and explained why most of them either suck, or fail to provide the "mage experience" of slinging spells against an enemy, as well as fail to achieve the stated design goal of being a glass cannon.

I believe that in general when people say "magic sucks" they mean "most spells suck, and the few that don't need to act as a secondary to a melee main"
And furthermore that the original post here is completely missing the point and making several errors in judgement which i listed (lack of AoE, lack of sustain, lower DPS)
 
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ark626

Moderator
As told you miss some really neat spells, i.E. Insect Swarm, was for a long time the secret tipp for beating trough the arcade.
And yeah glass canon is right but that is a damage dealer, also in other rpgs mages are always glass cannons, you just dont take much damage. But i.E. i can spam Lighting spell if i also have Focus, so in basic, i think you could do a strong spellcaster, but i will try to setup some of these at the weekend. :D

Chain lightning is pretty much a good grinding skill, for defeating swarms of small enemies, as said not every skill is usefull against each enemie.

Ice Nova i.E. is an incredibly usefull spell if you play swordmage like classes, and have insult to injurie etc.

But lets turn the tables there, before getting into some discussion.

What skills would you propose that would improve the mage experience?
Or in general what is missing?
 
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taltamir

Rabby
As told you miss some really neat spells, i.E. Insect Swarm, was for a long time the secret tipp for beating trough the arcade.
I addressed it
Insect swarm - way too expensive in EP, way too low damage. excellent range
Insect swarm costs too much EP and has no AoE. meaning its DPS and sustain ability are awful.
And yeah glass canon is right but that is a damage dealer
The thing is, flamethrower is the only glass cannon spell. a flamethrower build has massive damage with good DPS, and AoE (which can compensate for the EP costs if you can hit multiple enemies at once)
Other spells do not.

But lets turn the tables there, before getting into some discussion.

What skills would you propose that would improve the mage experience?
Or in general what is missing?
1. Most spells need AoE if it is single target, or to improve the AoE they already have.

2. EP costs need to be slashed on most spells.

3. Each of the 4 elements need a "basic attack" that you can switch the normal sword swipe with the elemental swipe in question, that would cost 0 EP. with a melee build you have "skills" with are basically fighter spells, you alternate basic attacks with the occasional melee spell.

a mage build other than flamethrower does the same, only its spells use MATK while its basic attack uses ATK. this MAD is a huge downside for them compared to melee builds which use ATK for both the skill and the basic attack. Because lets be honest here, the "skills" are just spells. Shadow clones? throwing a sword and then magically calling it back to your hand? those are all clearly spells

For more specifics though check this:
Fireball - decent single enemy damage per hit... except ridiculously too much EP cost and only hits one enemy meaning overall damage is vastly lower compared to the spamable sword swings, at a minimum it needs to explode with an AoE of a short sword.

Meteor - even more expensive than fireball, AoE way way too small, takes too long to land so enemies move. gimmicky and impractical

Flame thrower - literally the only useful combat spell in the game. deals awesome damage and on a decent AoE spread somwhere between 1h and 2h weapon.

Ice spikes - too much EP cost. not enough range or damage

Frost nova - inferior in every single way to 2H weapon. Damage too low, costs too much EP, AoE comparable to 2H.

Frosty friend - ridiculously OP. possibly the most useful and powerful skill in the game... however its a pet not a spell, you have no real control over it, you toggle it on once and then it just does its own thing. I have it on every melee build.

Earth spike - Takes too long to cast and aim. Excellent range. Damage and AoE is ok, but you just can't spam it like you can melee, not to mention the EP cost. The excellent range and aim makes it decent enough alternative for arcade where you sacrifice DPS for range in early levels, but later on you just lack the EP to spam it fast enough to not be slaughtered

summon plant - way too much EP cost, not mobile, not enough damage, it even says its gimmickly

Insect swarm - way too expensive in EP, way too low damage. excellent range

Chain lightning - pathetic damage, too expensive in EP. excellent range though.

Cloud strike - another uncontrolled summon. not really a combat spell. You can call it a spell, but you could also call things like melee skills spells too. its just a name. the fact is the character is not slinging spells. you toggle it once and it stays on forever doing its own thing. I have it on every melee build.

Static touch - this is a melee skill not a spell. all it does is buff melee damage. Except because its a spell it costs way too much EP and requires way too much micromanagement (gotta keep on recharging the cubes). This needs to be a support spell.
 

MDK

Green Slime
I think this debate is over. Magic got a huge buff on the re-balance patch and 1h swords got nerfed 30% From a theorycrafters point of view I feel like it was obvious magic was underwhelming for many reasons (all of which were addressed in the re-balance patch).

Just a reminder. This is what 1h swordbuild looked like before the nerf:
 
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