Balancing Magic and Melee

[Teylor]

Right now, like many others already mentioned (including myself), melee outclasses magic by far. Int he early game, most magic doesn't provide higher range than a two-handed sword, but require you to charge it up in order to deal enough damage or have all the benefits (like status effects). Another problem is, that you can run out of mana when using magic, while your normal attacks still hit like a truck, but do not cost anything.

So there are some possible solutions I could think of:

- Endurance: Endurance is like mana, but it is only required for normal attacks. So for example you could do 8 normal attacks in a row with a sword until your endurance reaches 0 and needs to recharge. With two-handed sword maybe 5-6 hits until depletion. There could be some passive skills that influence how fast your endurance recharges. Additionaly, like someone suggested in another thread, there could be a run mechanic. You hold down a button and it enables you to run. Ofc this should also drain endurance. Magic casters would have the advantage, that they can use all their endurance just for running, while a melee characters needs to use it for normal attacks as well

- Mid-Range Attack for Magic Weapons: This would be less complicated then implementing endurance. When using a staff/wand, you can shoot little magic projectile from it when using a normal attack. The damage is based on your MATK (instead ATK) and it pierces enemies. The drawbacks are, that it has no (or close to no) knockback and the attack speed is on par with two-handed sword. Like the name suggests, it only has mid-range. I would say double, maybe tripled range from two-handed sword. This way, you still have to be quite close in order to hit your enemy, but you're out of the enemies melee range at least.


If you have other ideas, please suggest them here. I think this balance should be done sooner then later, because the more magic/weapon get included in the game, the more work will it be to balance it afterwards.

 

[Own]

Right now, like many others already mentioned (including myself), melee outclasses magic by far.

http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/magic-sucks.5239/

 

[Teylor]

http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/magic-sucks.5239/

I answered in that thread. I still think that magic gives you to much disadvantages. Just because you get some good range and damage with some spells doesn't automatically mean it's on par or beter then melee. Take meteor for example: First you need to charge it up and then you still need to place the cross-hair. This requires alot of time. If the enemy is fast or uses projectiles, you can easily die because of that. Melee does not have such a huge drawback and mustn't dependent on mana.

 

[Pokesly]

Hmm I don't really think it's a matter of balancing Magic and Melee, as much as it would be balancing individual skills. For example, the current "best" build in arcade, (best meaning highest dps and safest execution) includes flamethrower. It provides a lot of CC, allows you to move while casting it and does tons of damage. If you're talking about story mode where it doesn't matter if you take damage, then sure melee shadow clones or something like that would probably out-dps any magic build. Since story mode can be beaten by using basically any build you want due to its relative easy difficulty, I think balancing the game based on arcade mode makes more sense. And right now if you're going for a high score or to even simply beat arcade, some builds just aren't viable, which includes skills for both magic and physical.

 

[The Observer]

I will have to agree that some of the magic talents feel just outright BAD. Arcane collar for example, is pretty much outclassed by endurance on most levels. That aside, the main thing about magic is the feeling of helplessness when you run out of EP. Something like a passive increased EP regeneration talent might help; second wind is far more geared towards melee characters. Alternatively, a charged attack for the rod consisting of a short ranged projectile based on MATK. I guess I'd just like to have a fallback that's magical in nature instead of swinging my rod around or using the bow, which do next to nothing with a mage's low attack.

 

[Own]

These are what I suggested in the Talents topic. Which do you think would have the biggest impact on magic?

Motormouth - +# Cast Speed per level.

Energy Rush - After hitting an enemy with a spell (1 instance per spell cast, no Flamethrower / Insect Swarm / Summonabuse) , increase EP regen by (Charge Level * Talent Level) % for # seconds. [Rewards charging up big spells and aiming them accurately, allowing for a steady MP supply if you're careful]

Soul Snatcher - After killing an enemy with a spell, increase EP regen by % for # seconds. Alternatively restore % EP. [Makes grinding with magic possible by bombarding enemies with spells, though perhaps not completely useful in boss battles without adds]

Unstable Spirit - Maximum magic damage potential increases by 10% per level, but minimum potential damage decreases by 5%. [More damage variance? -15% to minimum / +30% to maximum when rolling magic damage numbers?]

Chain Cast - Upon casting a charged spell, % chance to cast that same spell again at the current charge level in the next # seconds. [Silver Charge a Fireball? 5% chance to flash after casting it, allowing your next fireball to cast at Silver Charge instantly. Maybe also allows Chain Casted spells to reduced in cost? Though probably not.]

Spell Storage - Upon shield canceling a charged spell, that spell remains charged for [Talent * 2?] seconds. The spell can instantly be cast from that charge level within that time. Perfect Guarding while a spell is stored makes that spell free. [You charge up a Silver Fireball, shield cancel out of casting it, maybe you keep glowing or something. You get to run around to find a better spot to blast an enemy with, great. Or you perfect guard and that charged spell is free. Sounds skillful and fun! ]

Spell Strike - Upon attack canceling a charged spell, that spell remains charged for [Talent * 2?] seconds within the weapon. The spell is instantly cast upon striking an enemy in that timeframe. Perfect Guarding into the attack makes that spell free. [Instantly combo a wand-hit into a fireball launch, or a meteor/earthspike popping up in front of you? Seems fun! I'd prefer mechanics like these 10,000% more than 'Cast a spell, your next skill costs % less EP' ]

Whisperweaving - Channel your spells with whispers alone for (TalentOrb*2) tenths of a second, allowing you to move freely while charging without adapting the physical casting stance for a short time.

Spitfire - Fire debuffs last # seconds less, but deal +10% damage per hit. (Same damage, but done in a shorter period of time.)

Overcharge - Spells charged for 1 second over their maximum charge level gain (5 * #)% damage.

Arcane Wounds - Enemies have a % chance of being debuffed with 'Arcane Wounds' for the next (?) seconds after being hit by a spell. Restore (?) EP by hitting them with your weapon before Arcane Wounds fade. Represented as a purple outline around them.

 

[The Observer]

Motormouth: Not as useful as the melee equivalent, I think. Melee tends to be more sustained, magic more bursty in the actual casting (as opposed to the effects) so less of an impact.
Soul Snatcher/Energy Rush: Would suggest combining both into one talent, then making the soul snatcher component apply to normal monsters, while energy rush component to bosses. They neatly cover each others' problems.
Unstable spirit: would not use, simply because I prefer consistency over spike (which is why I take intelligence/endurance in arcade mode, as opposed to intelligence/surgeon). Personal playstyle preference.
Chain cast: Prismatic in reverse, maybe? Allow for the same school of magic? Personally would not take, but then again, playstyle.
Spell Storage: excellent and allows for great tactical thinking. Charge up from a distance in safety, run in and activate. Perfect guard allows for risk/reward, although I'd only allow it at maybe full investment.
Spell Strike: This appears to be made more for a multiclass setup - I'm not against it per se and it looks interesting, but it feels to me that so many of the current magic talents seem to be pushing the player towards a melee mage build.
Whisperweaving - not sure if would use, but personal. Also useless on targeted spells like meteor and earth spike.
Spitfire - Too situational, I think. You practically need +effect chance for this to be of any use. Could be improved if it applied to all damage over time effects, like insect swarm.
Overcharge: rewards getting some breathing space. I could see this synergising very well with spell storage/strike.

Arcane wounds - outclassed by second wind.

 

[Teylor]

Maybe also a talent like:

- Charge Flow: When charging a spell, your EP regeneration increases by 10% per talent point (max 5).

 

[Kheb]

Right now, like many others already mentioned (including myself), melee outclasses magic by far. Int he early game, most magic doesn't provide higher range than a two-handed sword, but require you to charge it up in order to deal enough damage or have all the benefits (like status effects). Another problem is, that you can run out of mana when using magic, while your normal attacks still hit like a truck, but do not cost anything.

So there are some possible solutions I could think of:

- Endurance: Endurance is like mana, but it is only required for normal attacks. So for example you could do 8 normal attacks in a row with a sword until your endurance reaches 0 and needs to recharge. With two-handed sword maybe 5-6 hits until depletion. There could be some passive skills that influence how fast your endurance recharges. Additionaly, like someone suggested in another thread, there could be a run mechanic. You hold down a button and it enables you to run. Ofc this should also drain endurance. Magic casters would have the advantage, that they can use all their endurance just for running, while a melee characters needs to use it for normal attacks as well

- Mid-Range Attack for Magic Weapons: This would be less complicated then implementing endurance. When using a staff/wand, you can shoot little magic projectile from it when using a normal attack. The damage is based on your MATK (instead ATK) and it pierces enemies. The drawbacks are, that it has no (or close to no) knockback and the attack speed is on par with two-handed sword. Like the name suggests, it only has mid-range. I would say double, maybe tripled range from two-handed sword. This way, you still have to be quite close in order to hit your enemy, but you're out of the enemies melee range at least.


If you have other ideas, please suggest them here. I think this balance should be done sooner then later, because the more magic/weapon get included in the game, the more work will it be to balance it afterwards.

I disagree to the fullest on Endurance, killing momentum and flow of the game only for the reason of magic being too weak. Personally I wouldn't mind having basic attacks costing a few EP, you could nullify that effect with investment in Second Wind.

I do really like the magic weapon idea, anything about it actually. Go for it! Right now! I'd play magic for a change.

Though the reason why magic sucks compared to melee is for the mere reason that you need to charge up, then aim and pray for you projectile to actually hit. While doing all this you not able to shield (well you are but you won't attack that way), slowed down as hell so you cannot avoid attacks by just moving so against a big angry mob of enemies you're fucked, the damage sucks, the range sucks, the projectile speed sucks, aiming is too hard (no auto-focus). Oh, and the items you'd like to deal actually some noticeable damage give you barely any endurance against attacks. Beside you need to spend a lot resources to have some decent EP. Do you like your spells become stronger? Nah, they cost too much EP and casting time.

We can think of nerving Melee big-time or we can think of a lot of fun talents but I think killing melee will be killing this game and a lot of fun talents are not going to take away the fundamental problems with caster builds which are caused by the mechanics of casting abilities, the creators of this game thought of a new and interesting way of casting spells, which is fundamentally outclassed by just regular attacking just because of these mechanics. Destroying Melee or Increasing damage to ridiculous amounts will not change the fundamental problems with the mechanics and momentum Spell Casters are facing. Though, I think making Wands and Staffs being able to deal ranged damage based on M.Att will change a lot on viability.

 

[taltamir]

I fully agree that endurance would kill the momentum of the game and ruin it completely...
The solution to the tiny tiny tiny insignificant EP pool of mages and the fact they spend most their time running in circles recharging EP is not to ruin melee as well. but to vastly reduce or eliminate EP costs for spells