Enemy spawn

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by BJDware, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    Hello all,
    One thing i would like to suggest for this game above all, is the spawn mechanics.
    Simple way to put it:
    Have enemies spawn only outside the field of vision.

    Nothing like having mobs spawning right next to you and attacking you straight away while you are busy with a few things.

    Used search to find a topic that covers this topic, but alas found none. If you find a pre-existing one, please let me know so i may apply my support.
     
  2. Own

    Own Moderator

    This would probably upset a lot of people who hate running back and forth a screen to grind enemies.

    There are safezones everywhere you can run to if you're in multiplayer and need to sort your menu out.
     
  3. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    May be quite true. But compromises could be made.
    For example, player lvl vs mob lvl. When a player exceeds the mob difficulty of an area by a certain margin, then the mechanics could shift to actively spawning within the field of vision.

    I Just personally found it aggravating to be constantly being attacked when i am trying to: kill a stronger mob / clear debris for items / etc. If i, per example was stronger than the mobs in question to the point that i don't worry about them inflicting too much damage, then my aggression could be more mild.

    It's a mere thought based a lot on personal opinion, but any further feedback is greatly welcome.
     
  4. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    I've never had a problem with enemies spawning close to me. Infact the only enemy I've found hard were the green presents in the Toy Factory on Hard difficulty. This would ofcourse depend on your build and items and not as much on your level. I personally wouldn't like to run big distances to fight new enemies as I'm either running around anyways because I have to kite the enemies around to avoid taking damage or I'm just tanking everything because I'm to strong for whatever I'm farming.

    If you're having a hard time to deal with enemies in an area then I would suggest that you look for new gear or farm weaker monsters. If the problem enemy is a Yeti then I would suggest to either use ranged spells or to leave the area and re-entering it as that will reset the spawn rate which will make enemies spawn slower until you've killed some stuff again.
     
  5. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    This is not an in-game issue of survivability. It's a case of barraging players.

    In my personal opinion it's not nice to kill enemies surrounding you only to see them respawn right in front of you. Yes it's excellent in a farming scenario, but that is realistically the only reason why it could be appreciated in the least.

    It's something to think about at least. Just remember that compromises could be applied to at least partially satisfy both grounds.
     
  6. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Well the game is a farming game so being surrounded by enemies quickly is more of a good thing than a bad thing isn't it? If survivability is no problem then what's the problem here? I'm sorry for not understanding why you wanna change the respawning system. :p
     
  7. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    Farming is a base element in this game i do realize. But not everyone will want to be barraged or farm at every moment.
    There is many micro reasons as to why i am bringing this up.

    One would be the attempt to get from pint A to point B. Now i wouldn't mind killing a few enemies or swiping some bushes or barrels along the way, but being hounded at every stop whilst doing so is not always enjoyable. I Could choose to run between points, but it would be less satisfying.

    Or perhaps i see a chest amongst some tree's, i want to figure out how to get to it, but i am constantly being attacked by enemies whilst doing so. Clearing the general area should at least gain some ample peace to investigate.

    Or just the general feel of killing off the tougher enemies to lighten the difficulty of surviving. Yes, gears etc can improve such situations, but it feels inadequate to the element of removing obstacles from a confrontation. Having such obstacles only return once removed spins the feel of chaos to me.

    It's not a large issue that i am declaring, rather a small personal annoyance that could possibly be adjusted to an extent, in-game and/or personally.

    A good example of an inflated compromise could be that enemies respawn only outside field of view, but respawn at an increasing rate and inside field of view by using a bait type of item. Using baits for mob grinding adds micro management ( which could prove more interesting ) and leaves players who are less interested in grinding at every moment they idle in one area too long in more peace.

    Or a simplified example,

    Enemies only respawn outside a general radius of the player that results in non aggression to the player. Tuning down the respawn aggression and proximity.

    Again, it's a minor issue if not at all for most players whom enjoy the aspect or have adapted. But it is regardless, food for thought. The result of consideration could be minor such as small adjustments / tweaks, no changes at all, or a whole new complex farm/hunting system or game mode for players to enjoy.
     
  8. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Ok, thanks for clearing things out. Now I feel like I can give a better response than "There are no flaws in this game." XD

    Here's what I think about the different scenarios you've pointed out to where a change in the respawn system could need a tweak.

    Moving from point A to point B does not require the player to kill anything and so far there are at most 3 different spots where avoiding damage from enemies you run by is really hard to do without stopping (still possible though). What the player decides to do and what the game requires the player to do are different things. To change the respawn system because some of us prefer to kill every enemy before moving on to the next room doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me. However there has been a discussion about adding a game mode where players ARE forced to do so in which case you would pretty much need another respawn system.

    Next you talk about the issue where fighting enemies would take up too much of your attention for you to find and solve secrets. Unfortunately I don't remember how I myself dealt with this problem the first time I played through the game but to me there are two different views you could have on this matter.
    1. Is that the harder the challange the sweeter the victory. Which means that enemies increases the difficulty which (if you follow the earlier statement) means that once you finally complete it you will feel awesome.
    2. Is that there doesn't have to be enemies around the area at all. If fighting takes your mind off a challange that's hard enough on it's own then there doesn't have to be enemies around. Enemies can easily be removed from an area to give the player the space he/she needs to think.
    Changing the respawn system to fit this purpose only could be an option if it's kept in that zone/area. I would be totally fine with enemies near secrets spawning at a slower pace. That would actually not be a bad thing at all since it could help players realize that there is a secret to be found nearby which maybe could allow for more hidden secrets that are even less obvious to where they are to be added. If grinding different enemy spots was a way to help finding secrets then killing enemies at different spots would be more encouraged and players would be "forced" to discover the whole world.

    In your last scenario you talk about killing an enemy to make the battle easier. My opinion on this is that it's not a problem. I actually think that the combat outside of bossfights would be super easy if new enemies didn't spawn in during a fight. It might seem a bit chaotic but having to rethink my strategy in the middle of a fight forces me to make a lot of choises on the fly which I personally think is a good thing since it makes fighting normal enemies exciting. In some cases I actually think that fighting the normal enemies is harder than fighting the bosses and sometimes I use my vivid imagination to pretend that I am fighting a boss while in reality I'm just fighting some normal level 4 monsters. My point is that combat outside of bosses are to me really fun and exciting right now since the normal enemies still pose a threat to my fully geared character (not all the enemies ofcourse). This leads to the simple opinion that I don't feel like the respawning system needs a change.

    Sorry for the long post. :p
     
  9. Cheynas

    Cheynas Rabby

    As has been stated before, there are safe spots where you can idle to think.

    Also, respawning doesn't start until you've cleared every enemy in a specified area, so if you leave one alive (and continuously block its attack) then you'll have infinite time to think.
     
  10. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Your shield would run out of HP so not really but it is true that the respawning doesn't start until you've killed all the enemies in a spot so leaving just one enemy left is possible with the current respawning system. :D
     
  11. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    All in all, even this would satisfy me and surely even a farmer to an extent:

    Stop enemies from respawning right next to players and immediately attacking.
    Just some breathing space and time to see that enemy before he can actually start hitting you. I'v seen it a lot trying to farm away in pumpkin woods, having enemies spawn right next to me and hacking away at me before i could react to their spawn.
     
  12. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    I don't think that's the games fault. You should always expect the enemies to attack you. :p
    On a little more serious note though I really think it's about playstyle rather than a "broken" respawn system. I don't think I've played any game where all the enemies tries to attack you as soon as they can which is why at first it seems like there is a problem with the games system but after playing the game for a few hours I learned their behaviour and adapted accordingly. It's not that hard to avoid getting hit if you always keep in mind that an enemy can spawn right next to you. Sometimes when I farm for an item I try to see how long I can go without getting hit. So far my best time is 15 minutes in the biggest room in the eastern part of the Flying Fortress. However I don't think I could beat that time in the Jumpkin Forest since the mix of monsters in there is way tougher to deal with. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that the system punishes players who don't expect the enemies to appear next to them. The only enemy that doesn't attack right away as they spawn are the Rabbits when you play on Normal difficulty and you basically get a free hit on them because they are passive until you hurt them which makes them easy to fight. I think the game would be way too easy and boring if enemies couldn't approach the player unless he/she wanted them to. The element of suprise adds a little more flavour to the combat and that way the enemies have more influence on the players movement.
     
  13. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    I Appreciate your input, but i think i'm going to stick with my previous post on this subject. I Personally think that the compromise is valid, as well for the reasons.
     
  14. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    I think it is not. This game is about grinding and therefor fighting enemies.

    Right now there are spawn zones on the map and the mobs spawn spread randomly in the whole area they're assigned to. So if they have a big area like in the pillar mountains or even the right wing of the flying temple the grinding a specific enemy can be annoying as you always have to run from A to B.
    Furthering the distance would just make farming harder.


    I really don't even know where to start here.
    First of "Now i wouldn't mind killing a few enemies or swiping some bushes or barrels along the way, but being hounded at every stop whilst doing so is not always enjoyable."
    So do you want to fight or not? And destroying bushes is nothing you can't do while there are enemies. If you want to destroy buhes or barrels nothing hinders you and if you don't than just pass by them. I believe there is no enemy faster than the player right now.

    "Or perhaps i see a chest amongst some tree's, i want to figure out how to get to it, but i am constantly being attacked by enemies whilst doing so. Clearing the general area should at least gain some ample peace to investigate."
    You know what? Killing the enemies grants you 5-8 seconds complete peace and if that is not enough you can just stay out of the way of enemies.

    "Or just the general feel of killing off the tougher enemies to lighten the difficulty of surviving."
    You want to fight every stronger enemy 1 on 1? I don't know how i feel about this.
    I can understand the feeling of chaos and i prefer a quite 1 on 1 most of the times, but only on enemies that are worthy of that. I mean, a boss 1v1, ok, but an elite?.... especially since i'd rather have many of them so farming gets more interesting.

    "[...] respawn only outside field of view, but respawn at an increasing rate and inside field of view by using a bait type of item."
    There are major problems with that.
    The distance between the player and the mobs should be pretty close, as much running = much fatigue and therefor = less fun farming.
    Spawing outside the FoV isn't even possible in many areas and would cause problems in many more.
    Example: In the haunted forest if monsters only spawn outside the FoV you could barely progress as all the small ways would be filled up with monster, because they don't spread around the player but only spawn outside the FoV...


    All in all
    Spawn distance is not the problem#

    But, you feel corned, bothered and or annoyed by the constant stream of monsters
    the solution?
    The opposite of what you asked for: An item that is for those who want to roam freely. An item that if worn grants friendly monsters. But we would need a way that this can't be abused. Maybe make it a potion that wears of after some time and if you attack monsters in this period they still defend themselves.
     
  15. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Or it could be an item that stops you from attacking so you can't use it to get free hits on enemies and to stop people from just binding it to a hotkey and just swap really quickly you could have a 5 second charge up on it before it turns enemies friendly.

    That or this:
    I would be totally fine with enemies near secrets spawning at a slower pace. That would actually not be a bad thing at all since it could help players realize that there is a secret to be found nearby which maybe could allow for more hidden secrets that are even less obvious to where they are to be added. If grinding different enemy spots was a way to help finding secrets then killing enemies at different spots would be more encouraged and players would be "forced" to discover the whole world.

    This is as much compromise I would be willing to accept as it would keep the combat and respawning system the way it is now, which is how I like it.

    BTW the Halloweeds (the purple flowers that can move around) have a higher movement speed than the player if I'm not mistaken. I think you outrun them if you run diagonally though. :p
     
  16. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    I think they have the same speed, but i'll test that right away

    Edit:
    around 40 seconds i have the perfect attempt at showing Halloweed speed
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  17. BJDware

    BJDware Green Slime

    Thanks for your input MrChoco.
    I May be wrong, but i think you missed this post:

    What are your thoughts on this? ( The quoted post is not about FoV ).
     
  18. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    You had a lot of good arguments and it is not easy to answer all of them together.
    I understand that and i think that not all enemies fall under that complaint. A Yeti is pretty slow and won't attack right away, but jumpkins will attack you without delay...

    Maybe all mobs should receive a small period of inactivity in which they can move, but won't attack. A small period of piece in which the player won't aggro them. Like 0.3 or less seconds or so

    And the spawn distance to the player... maybe make a small radius, about 1 player wide, in which the enemies don't spawn

    Without touching the spawn rate and a tiny delay in aggro and a small radius of freedom it should be more enjoyable.


    It definitly is annoying, when you get attack without the possibility to react, but when you want to tweak it, you should try to make it so, that other player still can play the way they prefer. I think that a small tweak to enemy spaw behaviour would benefit everyone.
     
    BJDware likes this.
  19. Cheynas

    Cheynas Rabby

    At least in Normal difficulty.
    Hard should be Hard.
     
  20. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    I would be dissapointed if it wouldn't be.
     

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