Flamethrower- Silver Charge

[Kana]

I haven't much to say about it's damage, it seems fair(by itself). It seems to be designed to be difficult to use, and it is, if you aren't familiar with it. It, however, is actually the most versatile ability.

It boils down to 2 things: Strafing and Multi-hit stun. During it's entire duration. No other ability has either.

The most difficult thing I want to get across, is that not being able to change direction could seem like a con, but in this case, it makes it incredibly capable of crowd control.

I don't know how to demonstrate(I'm not super tech-savvy), so I will illustrate:
Most enemies are melee only, and move in a straight path toward you. You have flamethrower currently channeling it's high damage over time and it's constant hit-stun on a rabby. Most abilities force you to move slightly forward, allowing enemies to get around you (not the case with Flamethrower). But in the case that another rabby approaches from the side, instead of swiveling the flames away from your current target, leaving your flank open anyway, you can simply backpedal . This keeps the flames on the current rabby until you leave it's reach, allowing you to maneuver Flamethrower onto the other rabby or, even better, backpedal a little farther and let them both jump into the flames again themselves!

You can use the movement to dodge ranged attacks and boss attacks, potentially without interrupting your damage output.

The ability is both offensive and defensive, keeping your target paralyzed, and if you find yourself in a pinch, you can just adjust yourself(at full movement speed), without interrupting the ability (which only takes energy on the initial cast), to a better position, all while piling on the highest damage-per-second in the game. (Kana never was good with stats, and is probably wrong)

Is this how it was intended to be?

 

[Own]

all while piling on the highest damage-per-second in the game.

This honor goes to Shadowclone, with the right talents, I believe.

We just use flamethrower in arcade because using Shadowclone in Arcade is a good way of taking a lot of damage, which reduces score. Too many enemies coming at you from all directions.

In terms of speed of DPS it could go to Heroic Slam, too, I dunno.

 

[DrRiddles]

Also keep in mind that if you take any damage, it will cancel flamethrower. Which can be a pain for mages since we rely heavily on ep and in arcade, that could mean life or death. I can't recall if taking damage cancels heroic slam or if you keep going.

Shadowclone is definitely stronger as it can only be cancelled by the user and it gains other buffs from talents.
Heroic Slam is probably faster only because it's all the damage in 3? hits where Shadowclone and Flamethrower do it over a few hits.

 

[Kana]

@Own Thanks for the correction!

But, was it meant to be this good at crowd control (in the right hands)?

It tends to clear an entire room in one use, and enemies don't get much chance to retaliate.

We just use flamethrower in arcade because using Shadowclone in Arcade is a good way of taking a lot of damage, which reduces score. Too many enemies coming at you from all directions.

To me, this is a perfect indication that it is very overpowered? And "we", as in most people, right?

I'm not entirely against the idea of some abilities being a little more powerful than others, but from your recent post, and experience, I'm under the impression that others are.

 

[The G-Meister]

I remember having a discussion on Discord with Own and Teddy about Flamethrower, specifically the silver and gold charges. The solutions thought up I think have a lot of potential. Here are probably the most important points. Of course, these aren't set in stone just because they've come from a Dev's mouth:

Teddy: "maybe we'll nerf charged flame throwers to do less damage while moving"

Me: "I'd suggest removing all movement techniques from flamethrower
It's flagged as high skill, because it seems to me like you're supposed to line yourself up a good shot and then cast, because you can't move
It requires less skill once you can move around with it, but then I guess things get more complicated in terms of fighting as well
It looks like you just turn into a steamroller though, and it feels like the gold charge isn't even worth it
I'd suggest things like an initial shockwave when you cast, which fires out a wave of fire, setting any enemy it hits alight, and doing mediocre damage"

Teddy: "I don't think we need to be so radical as to remove the movement altogether the first thing we try (I think most people enjoy that mechanic), but rewarding positioning (staying put) while still letting people adjust with the higher charges"

Own: "The thing about rewarding positioning is, staying still gets you killed in SoG
It's all about constant repositioning"

Teddy: "But my gut feeling is it might be more interesting if repositioning was staggered instead of just flying around all over the place, all the time
That is avoiding damage is naturally beneficial to maintain the cast, but staying put for as long as possible is how to maximize the damage"

I'd be a big fan of this personally. It feels like a solution to do less damage while moving keeps to the label of "high skill", but keeping the aspect of movement around is quite necessary for the skill to become useable in the late game. The gold charge also needs a rework, but it's hard to say anything until the silver has been reworked and tested.

 

[Kana]

@The G-Meister

It's good to hear all of that!
I had an inkling that it was being looked it, since it is, after all, very popular.

Then my insight to toss in is just to point out that:
Not turning (locked strafing) should be viewed as a pro, and not a con, despite appearances.

 

[Own]

To me, this is a perfect indication that it is very overpowered?

Only in the context of arcade, and only in the company of Frosty Friend. No speedrunners use it in Story Mode. In Story Mode, Summon Plant is probably much more viable a spell than Flamethrower for survival.

Teddy said he's going to change Frosty Friend to not draw 100% of aggro for balancing purposes.

Personally I think the skill works fine as it is and requires zero nerfing mechanically. It handles well, it's fun mechanically and it's fun visually. Which isn't something that I can say for many other skills.

 

[The G-Meister]

Oh it's great fun, but I think the jump from bronze charge to silver charge and the lack of jump from silver charge to gold charge means it just needs a shift around. The base idea is great and the first two charges feel nice and balanced, but if the game is going to stick to the ethos of Bronze being okay, Silver being useable and Gold being downright awesome, I feel it would need that rework.

 

[DrRiddles]

Make it so if you cast gold flamethrower, you cannot be interrupted

 

[Kana]

Make it so if you cast gold flamethrower, you cannot be interrupted

An interesting idea, but Flamethrower already is so defensive in itself against melee mobs(stun-locks them), I think that would be overkill, and take a majority of the skill required to use out of it.

Maybe it could work, for the first few frames, and only against weak hitters (not boars or yetis or bosses)...

 

[DrRiddles]

An interesting idea, but Flamethrower already is so defensive in itself against melee mobs(stun-locks them), I think that would be overkill, and take a majority of the skill required to use out of it.

Maybe it could work, for the first few frames, and only against weak hitters (not boars or yetis or bosses)...

So melee ya but there are a lot of projectiles. Keep in mind that charging to gold does take some time and any damage you get during that will cancel the casting and you lose ep.

 

[Kana]

I don't think there is more than one projectile type per area, and they tend to be less common. I've never had problems with lots of projectiles, unless there is a randomly spawned plethora of projectile enemies, in which case, a different tactic should be used.

Also, it's meant to be difficult to master, you're supposed to be able to mess it up.

 

[DrRiddles]

I agree with the difficult to master but when you have skills like phantom and heroic slam where you can get your dmg out with little to no consequence, it makes you wonder why go fire where there are better options?

 

[Kana]

@DrRiddles
Link.

 

[DrRiddles]

Kana, I'm not disagreeing it could use some work but how much of that do you think is the snowman's fault? I know there is a video with 2h weapon and only snowman and you can beat arcade mode. Apparently people are even doing it with the plant minion. I think what makes flamethrower so strong is when it is paired with snowman since it takes all the aggro and blocks damage while you are casting. I get a feeling the runs won't be as easy if you didn't have snowman.

 

[Kana]

Point taken-- My observations and opinions are possibly lopsided. I had taken the snow buddy into consideration, but you make a very strong point there.

However, there are always ways to make space, I don't think it really changes what flamethrower is capable of.