Let's Discuss Talents

Kheb

Green Slime
Hello there!

I think that certain Talents need to be reworked, everything is open for discussion obviously ;D. I also hope to share and get more information about the the best/worst picks you can make. Also I hope that we can figure out how to make certain builds more viable by focusing on Talents in this thread. I think it's very important to have decent balance in a such an awesome Builder RPG like this.

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Talents that I think need a change:

Endurance
Brutality
Fine Taste
Quick Reflexes

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Endurance:
I think the +3 max EP pick is too weak, you put 5 points into this and you'll receive 15 max EP, which is quite decent considering that Magic Builds usually lack EP. However, I think that putting 5 points into this actually holds you back since you might could just one shot mobs with other talents. My suggestion change the amount of EP increase to 5 and decreasing the maximum Talent Points you can invest to 3. This way you still have the possibility to passively increase your Max EP but not having to commit so hard on this talent. Another reason why I think this Talent needs a buff is due to reducing (possible) effectiveness of Mana Burn.
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Brutality:
Yay, more crit damage. However if you do some maths you can see that this pick is very weak compared to Strength. If you have 20% crit chance, what I consider quite high and you've probably already invested 5 points into Surgeon, 15% crit damage only increases my DPS output by 3%. 0,2*2,15-0,2*2=0,43-0,40=0,03. Investing three point into Strength increases your DPS (with 20% crit) by (1,06+(1,06*0,2*2))-(1+(1*0,2*2))=0,084. 56% crit chance increases DPS output by 0,084. To be honest, I don't think it's viable to push your pet this hard in Crit considering +DMG is way better. My Suggestion: Increase values (with 20% Crit Chance, +10% Crit Damage will be as strong as the DPS increase from Strength) or change mechanics to, for example, increase damage by 5% after dealing a critical hit for a short period of time (or next attack) or ignoring certain % of armor on crit, Increase Attack/Casting Speed, etc.
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Fine Taste:
Someone out there that actually makes use of potions except for feeding your pet?
It might become more useful when changed to buff duration so you can use it to buff procs (also that of Fireball, maybe even Duration of Flamethrower, etc.) and also make the Support skills more viable.
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Quick Reflexes:
I personally think this is one of the worst picks to make. I'm a noob and I cannot Perfect Guard without this, (not stating that I can Perfect Guard 100% of the time, btw :p). My suggestion is changing this Talent's mechanics to improved reward when performing a Perfect Guard, maybe a proc when shielding to trigger Perfect Guard (let's say you keep your shield up while being bombarded by projectiles and a shitton of mobs is bashing into you). An (increased/extra) attack damage buff for a short time etc.
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Burn me down, show me why I am wrong ;D!


Cheers,

Kheb.
 
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GarlicJelly

Friendly Moderator (Formerly known as GoodStuff)
I agree with the Endurance change. I don't think that +15 EP is something that is particulary strong so putting 5 points into it isn't very attractive. Having that extra maximum EP sure is nice when you use skills like Cloud Strike, Shadow Clone and Frosty Friend but it's not top priority since you don't really gain any damage from having it.

I don't have an opinion on Crit other than that I find it too complicated. I don't use it since it requires a lot of number crunching to find out when it's useful or not. In most games I've played there is a certain Crit Chance you need in order for a Crit build to work and I simply don't feel like fishing for Crit fishes for my pet to make my late game build OP.

Fine Taste is something I would never pick in Story mode since I have unlimited potions and I don't really need my potion to last longer. Since I don't play Arcade mode I don't really know if it's worth picking it up there but I'm guessing it isn't since it's unreliable damage and in general I think it's better to get something that constantly increases your damage.

I made a Flamethrower build where I had Perfect Guarding as a main component of my build. Flamethrower is a close combat spell that is best used when charged to Silver charge so you can move around with it and having the increased window to more successfully land those Perfect Guards was a really nice thing to have. I wouldn't say that this talent is completely useless but its not suited for every build. If I'll ever switch from Shadow Clone to use magic I'll use this Talent in combination with Flamethrower for sure since I think that build is lots of fun. :D
 

Own

Moderator
I think some Talents are better in Arcade than they are in Story, maybe they're specifically there with Arcade in mind.

Some Talents are just slightly worse than other Talents because you get many, many more of them in Story Mode than you do anything else. So the second and third best options are still something you'll invest in.

Some Talents just become good past a certain level. Something like Endurance isn't a good Talent to pick in your first few levels, but later on that +15 EP seems very tempting since EP doesn't naturally rise. There's a lot more wiggle room with 115 EP than there is 100. And it's particularly good in Arcade Mode if you're just focused on bursting down every room as fast as you can and every EP counts. If you're running a full summoner build, Arcane Collar and Endurance are both extremely necessary.

Brutality isn't good at first glance, but when your Crit chance gets high enough it's essentially a coinflip as to whether or not you get +15% damage on each attack. It's a later-Talent.

Fine Taste is something that would only ever be good in Arcade Mode, where you don't have infinite resources. Having +20% damage or +20 defense for longer would be extremely useful if you had a lot of stat potions, which I usually do as I get near the later areas. (That said, I would never pick Fine Taste in Arcade because there aren't enough talent points to go around. Maybe when Arcade is expanded.)

As for Quick Reflexes... Perfect Blocks are earned. :p Auto-PB would be cheap.
 

Kheb

Green Slime
I think some Talents are better in Arcade than they are in Story, maybe they're specifically there with Arcade in mind.

Some Talents are just slightly worse than other Talents because you get many, many more of them in Story Mode than you do anything else. So the second and third best options are still something you'll invest in.

Some Talents just become good past a certain level. Something like Endurance isn't a good Talent to pick in your first few levels, but later on that +15 EP seems very tempting since EP doesn't naturally rise. There's a lot more wiggle room with 115 EP than there is 100. And it's particularly good in Arcade Mode if you're just focused on bursting down every room as fast as you can and every EP counts. If you're running a full summoner build, Arcane Collar and Endurance are both extremely necessary.

Brutality isn't good at first glance, but when your Crit chance gets high enough it's essentially a coinflip as to whether or not you get +15% damage on each attack. It's a later-Talent.

Fine Taste is something that would only ever be good in Arcade Mode, where you don't have infinite resources. Having +20% damage or +20 defense for longer would be extremely useful if you had a lot of stat potions, which I usually do as I get near the later areas. (That said, I would never pick Fine Taste in Arcade because there aren't enough talent points to go around. Maybe when Arcade is expanded.)

As for Quick Reflexes... Perfect Blocks are earned. :p Auto-PB would be cheap.

I agree on the part that some builds need certain levels to work out and also that on Arcade Mode the choices you make are different than that of Story.

I agree that 15 EP is quite nice for most caster builds, however 5 points is too much and again causes it to be a big trade-off against damage, something that caster builds are lacking.

However, Brutality is indeed a later talent, once it's basically the last Talent left. As I calculated, even 3 points in Adaptable is better to increase only your physical DPS than brutality unless you know a build that reaches easy over 50% crit chance.

On Fine Taste, again it's a 'later on' Talent however I still think it's weak. It might become more useful when changed to buff duration so you can use it to buff procs (also that of Fireball, maybe even Duration of Flamethrower, etc.) and also make the Support skills more viable.

Auto PG is cheap, however it's only a suggestion and still a proc. I'd like to see it granting you more bonus on PG to motivate players to actually use it and become better at this game. Another suggestion is change the Talent to something like Parry, once shielded (or not) you can get a proc to negate damage % of the damage and give a minor speed/crit/damage bonus. Might need to add some limitations like you can only Parry attacks that hit the front of you character, etc.
 
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Kheb

Green Slime
Also I think that some Talents need a new Tooltip.

Backhander:

When chaining normal attacks, every other strike....

Yeah, chaining. What does chaining mean? I can understand that it means the next basic attacks. Though, if I hold Z I just attack once. This means I need to press again to actually attack, I'm not that pro that I am frame perfect so how much time do I actually have for this to proc? Also, my Shadow Clones also do a normal attack, do they instantly get this proc?


Burning Weapon:

....to Burn enemies for 100% of you M.Att.

100% of what? My magic damage is 201, what I see is 19 damage a lot of times. I could guess that it probably adds up to about 201 with damage reduction due to armor and stuff.

Speaking of damage reduction. Without any knowledge of the influence of DEF I find it hard to say something about the Talents that include those, beside that I think they're quite bad since you could've put these points into other talents and deal enough damage that you won't need the DEF at all, but yeah, fundamental opinions on gaming xD.


Chilling Touch:

...to Chill + Slow (0,2%) enemies...

What's the difference between Chill and slow? How does Chill work? What is the 0,2%? is it the chance of the additional Slow debuff? Is it 0,2% per level bonus? Is it 0,2% slow? What does 0,2% slow mean? Attack speed or movement speed, or both?


Crippling Blast:

...of applying magical debuff effects...

This imples that there physical debuff effects? Which debuffs are qualified as physical and magical exactly?


Mana Burn:

When your EP is below 50%...

Is this 50% calculated with Max EP penalties from Shadow Clone, Cloud Strike and Frosty Friend?


Adaptable, Strength and Intelligence:

Their bonuses have a add-stat function. I haven't found a single hint in this game on a add-bonus-stat function which implies that these bonuses add up exponentially, correct?
 
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