The G-Meister
Giga Slime
Wait, Grindea's the Goddess, right? Then what's the island called?
Lore speculations / discussion (spoiler alert!)
- Thread starter res7less
- Start date
Smallsplat
Rabby
This brings up a really interesting point:
Is "Secrets of Grindea" Secrets of the place or goddess?
res7less
Jumpkin
It might actually be both, but I think the bigger focus is on the Goddess.
There has to be a reason she started all that Collecting movement by encouraging the farmers to leave their farms behind and to go grind. We know that she has time abilities if she is able to weave spells that persist through space and time, so maybe she has seen the future and has set a series of events into motion to influence what she has seen.
I think it was Ankin, who said that back in the day she freely interacted with mortals, but all that's left now are statues. So, perhaps she knew, she would disappear from the world and perhaps it happens not of her own volition. Perhaps her plan is supposed to bring her back somehow? It could be that those Bishops have somehow captured the Goddess to be able to act in her name and have a part of her powers and she wants to be freed? I don't know, it's all speculation, but it's still intriguing.
The G-Meister
Giga Slime
Has anyone picked up on this yet?
May not be anything big, but "cold", "children are starving" and "Anita" all point to the Seasonne household. Explains the empty house on the far right of Evergrind, but then again nothing's saying that could be Mrs. Pidgeys, or anyone else in the town for that matter. Text is from the notes here in Ivy's office:
Just more atrocities of Ivy I guess.
May not be anything big, but "cold", "children are starving" and "Anita" all point to the Seasonne household. Explains the empty house on the far right of Evergrind, but then again nothing's saying that could be Mrs. Pidgeys, or anyone else in the town for that matter. Text is from the notes here in Ivy's office:
Just more atrocities of Ivy I guess.
res7less
Jumpkin
Sudden theory time! Warning: this is gonna become philosophical and most likely nothing is proof for anything, but I think it's an interesting string of thoughts, based on some subtle clues, be they intentional or not.
Greetz,
res7less
When I worked on the translations of the recent update last week, I also went through a couple of other parts, where some changed items were mentioned to check if everything is in order, especially things from the Arcade Mode. Sometime later, I played through Tai Ming 2 and 3 again to do some testing of the new skills and noticed once again a somewhat strong connection between all that Tai Ming, Zhamla and Arcade Mode business, some slight parallels between those things, such as the Trial of the Goddess being similar to Arcade Mode, Zhamla knowing things he couldn't know, et cetera.
Then I stumbled upon a dialogue, that gave me some thought back in the day when I had first encountered it, but dismissed it due to nothing else hinting at it. I think someone else mentioned that dialogue as well, but I don't remember what the result was. Anyway, the dialogue was something that Krono said to the main character after defeating the Thorn-Worms, namely "Your awareness was incredible. Even when things attacked you from behind you managed to dodge them!" It's a hint at the player, being the one to pull the strings of the main character, who is able to see things that are behind him. Well, the resulting thought of this was "What if the player is Grindea?"
Not in the literal sense, of course, since NPCs can't know what a player is, but seen from their perspective Grindea is some sort of divine being that grants Collectors powers beyond those of normal fighters, those without a player guiding them. From the perspective of weak, normal NPCs everyone with such abilities appears "out of this world", namely our world, the real world.
I then started to follow up on that thought, just to see where it leads me. And I started noticing things. For example, the part where Preia reads about how the first Collectors came to be. Grindea bestows a wooden blade onto Link, Terra and Randi. She gives them a weapon, after what they start to discover, and grow, and collect. To me, this is symbolic of us, the players, picking up The Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana back in the day and guiding the characters to the point where they become strong. It is us, who open up their inventory and equip weapons onto them to make them stronger and better. It is us, who, like a divine being, see and know things, the characters cannot. We watch their worlds from above and guide their every step, so they can fulfill their destiny. We were the Grindeas of those worlds. And now, we are the Grindeas of this world, doing the same thing. We are the ones, who grant the main character the equipment and powers they possess.
Sure, in the world the Goddess is depicted as some angelic, female being. But those NPCs don't know what we look like. It's just how they picture that divine power, which they cannot explain. And if people can't explain something, they give it a face, so they can. This is how religion works in our world. Humans can better relate to something humanoid, rather than to something formless and unfathomable. In our world it's that stereotypical image of a man with a white beard chilling on some cloud in the sky. And in their world, that divine power is pictured as a female Goddess.
Still not convinced? Then check out the description of the item Essence of Grindea in the Arcade Mode. Get this: "A mysterious figurine portraying the goddess Grindea. You can feel a strange connection to it!" And what a connection it is! Considering the way Cards are established in the game, being a "materialized insight" and a "physical representation of complete understanding", those essences might be the same.
We, players, spend hours in Arcade Mode, honing our skills, understanding the mechanics, learning the challenges, defeating enemy after enemy and retrying over and over again. And this, creates those essences. Just look at how they drop! They can drop from enemies, challenges, fishing, bosses, basically from every activity you can do in Arcade Mode. Every single one is a representation of what we learn and how good we are. Every single one is a physical manifestation of our understanding of the Arcade Mode, which materializes in form of an essence, our essence. We spend our real-life time and dedication to get better, leaving a part of us, our essence, in their world.
So, if we are Grindea, what does that make those pesky Bishops to us? Well, I think those actually represent the power of the devs themselves. Think about it. They are, in some way, connected to the Goddess. They call themselves the Goddess' servants and yes, they do, in some way, serve us by having created a game, that we can play. But in truth, at least in that world, they are more powerful than we are. The NPCs have no idea what devs, or players are, so they put 'em in the same bucket. But we know the difference. It is them, who allow us to be a part of the world they created. They are the ones who created the strings we pull, having forged a path for us to follow. They are the ones causing events to happen and plans to unfold. We are only following a road we cannot stray from. It's one of the tasks of a developer, to make it seem as if the player has freedom, but in truth, it's a labyrinth with only one exit. So, it may actually not be Grindea's grand plan, but the Bishops'. And we are to find that exit.
Speaking about the Bishops, that would also explain the Arcade Mode introduction, where the mayor reads what the Bishop told him to. It plainly uses the terms Arcade Mode and Story Mode, things an NPC wouldn't know about - the mayor says so himself. But the Bishops, they know our gamer language, they know things like we do and can communicate with us in that language. That Bishop also says that he wants Grindea's Essence as a metaphor for the devs wanting us to play the game.
Furthermore, the hooded man in the woods also uses terms like "elite-monsters" and knows their exact locations. And in the end of the last interaction he says "My Goddess and I will watch you with great interest..." And watching the main character we do.
And what about that moment in Tai Ming 3, when the priest looks at the main character through time and space. The cutscene being scripted, only the devs can know where he will be standing in the future, thus being able to look at him from a flashback.
Some pieces just fall into place when thinking that way and I totally love it. If it happened unintentional, it's cool. If it's intentional, it's friggin' genius! There's more stuff concerning Zhamla, but it's getting late and I got rid of most of the stuff, that was brewing since last week without me having time to write it down. So now that I got the biggest chunk out of my system, I can rest a bit (no pun intended until I realized it is one).
In any case, the theorizing alone is a super enjoyable meta thing to do, originating from this game. I wonder how everything will play out in the end.
Then I stumbled upon a dialogue, that gave me some thought back in the day when I had first encountered it, but dismissed it due to nothing else hinting at it. I think someone else mentioned that dialogue as well, but I don't remember what the result was. Anyway, the dialogue was something that Krono said to the main character after defeating the Thorn-Worms, namely "Your awareness was incredible. Even when things attacked you from behind you managed to dodge them!" It's a hint at the player, being the one to pull the strings of the main character, who is able to see things that are behind him. Well, the resulting thought of this was "What if the player is Grindea?"
Not in the literal sense, of course, since NPCs can't know what a player is, but seen from their perspective Grindea is some sort of divine being that grants Collectors powers beyond those of normal fighters, those without a player guiding them. From the perspective of weak, normal NPCs everyone with such abilities appears "out of this world", namely our world, the real world.
I then started to follow up on that thought, just to see where it leads me. And I started noticing things. For example, the part where Preia reads about how the first Collectors came to be. Grindea bestows a wooden blade onto Link, Terra and Randi. She gives them a weapon, after what they start to discover, and grow, and collect. To me, this is symbolic of us, the players, picking up The Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana back in the day and guiding the characters to the point where they become strong. It is us, who open up their inventory and equip weapons onto them to make them stronger and better. It is us, who, like a divine being, see and know things, the characters cannot. We watch their worlds from above and guide their every step, so they can fulfill their destiny. We were the Grindeas of those worlds. And now, we are the Grindeas of this world, doing the same thing. We are the ones, who grant the main character the equipment and powers they possess.
Sure, in the world the Goddess is depicted as some angelic, female being. But those NPCs don't know what we look like. It's just how they picture that divine power, which they cannot explain. And if people can't explain something, they give it a face, so they can. This is how religion works in our world. Humans can better relate to something humanoid, rather than to something formless and unfathomable. In our world it's that stereotypical image of a man with a white beard chilling on some cloud in the sky. And in their world, that divine power is pictured as a female Goddess.
Still not convinced? Then check out the description of the item Essence of Grindea in the Arcade Mode. Get this: "A mysterious figurine portraying the goddess Grindea. You can feel a strange connection to it!" And what a connection it is! Considering the way Cards are established in the game, being a "materialized insight" and a "physical representation of complete understanding", those essences might be the same.
We, players, spend hours in Arcade Mode, honing our skills, understanding the mechanics, learning the challenges, defeating enemy after enemy and retrying over and over again. And this, creates those essences. Just look at how they drop! They can drop from enemies, challenges, fishing, bosses, basically from every activity you can do in Arcade Mode. Every single one is a representation of what we learn and how good we are. Every single one is a physical manifestation of our understanding of the Arcade Mode, which materializes in form of an essence, our essence. We spend our real-life time and dedication to get better, leaving a part of us, our essence, in their world.
So, if we are Grindea, what does that make those pesky Bishops to us? Well, I think those actually represent the power of the devs themselves. Think about it. They are, in some way, connected to the Goddess. They call themselves the Goddess' servants and yes, they do, in some way, serve us by having created a game, that we can play. But in truth, at least in that world, they are more powerful than we are. The NPCs have no idea what devs, or players are, so they put 'em in the same bucket. But we know the difference. It is them, who allow us to be a part of the world they created. They are the ones who created the strings we pull, having forged a path for us to follow. They are the ones causing events to happen and plans to unfold. We are only following a road we cannot stray from. It's one of the tasks of a developer, to make it seem as if the player has freedom, but in truth, it's a labyrinth with only one exit. So, it may actually not be Grindea's grand plan, but the Bishops'. And we are to find that exit.
Speaking about the Bishops, that would also explain the Arcade Mode introduction, where the mayor reads what the Bishop told him to. It plainly uses the terms Arcade Mode and Story Mode, things an NPC wouldn't know about - the mayor says so himself. But the Bishops, they know our gamer language, they know things like we do and can communicate with us in that language. That Bishop also says that he wants Grindea's Essence as a metaphor for the devs wanting us to play the game.
Furthermore, the hooded man in the woods also uses terms like "elite-monsters" and knows their exact locations. And in the end of the last interaction he says "My Goddess and I will watch you with great interest..." And watching the main character we do.
And what about that moment in Tai Ming 3, when the priest looks at the main character through time and space. The cutscene being scripted, only the devs can know where he will be standing in the future, thus being able to look at him from a flashback.
Some pieces just fall into place when thinking that way and I totally love it. If it happened unintentional, it's cool. If it's intentional, it's friggin' genius! There's more stuff concerning Zhamla, but it's getting late and I got rid of most of the stuff, that was brewing since last week without me having time to write it down. So now that I got the biggest chunk out of my system, I can rest a bit (no pun intended until I realized it is one).
In any case, the theorizing alone is a super enjoyable meta thing to do, originating from this game. I wonder how everything will play out in the end.
Greetz,
res7less
Sounds very interesting, i will beleive in this theory
KoBeWi
Jumpkin
Something about animals and monsters and cards. Minor spoilers from ULTRA Frontline.
After pet quest, Oak says this:
If we assume that cards drop only from monsters, that would explain why there are species that don't drop cards, although what makes a monster is still quite arbitrary. It means that tamed pets won't drop cards, because they don't attack others (they are non-agressive). Also, it's possible that Zhamla might be sort of a monster now, so ironically, he might be the one to drop Human card after he is killed (that would be Human Collector card, to be more exact).Oak said:
res7less
Jumpkin
I know I wrote "theory time" in the beginning, but I don't consider it as much a theory as just a strain of interesting thoughts, based on things that are mentioned in the game. Whether or not those were put there intentionally, it's still an interesting perspective, viewing players as respective games' almighty deities.Sounds very interesting, i will beleive in this theory
As much as I like the thought of Zhamla dropping the human card, by that logic Zhamla would again cease being a monster after you bait him with a golden... I dunno... what foods do wild Zhamlas like in their natural habitat? ...and competing the mini-game
KoBeWi
Jumpkin
It was never said that every monster can be tamed. Imagine taming GUN-D4M for example. It might depend on how deep evil is rooted in specific individual.
res7less
Jumpkin
Yeah, I was just joking, of course, but it's true, it would make a whole lot of sense, especially dramatically by being irony. It's just that there is still something missing since it's really unlikely that, as we know, no hostile person ever has dropped a human card before. Something would have to separate him from "normal humans".
KoBeWi
Jumpkin
Well, I also theorize that it's Grindea herself who decides on who actually drop cards and who not. It might be based on some her arbitrary judgement. You know, if something drops cards, there's always someone who wants to collect them. So if humans dropped cards, that would cause mass slaughter, unless getting human cards was a taboo. So that makes humans/Fae/etc. races chosen by Grindea. And monsters drop cards just for the sake of having something to collect, because Goddess likes making someone collect things for her.
That slightly reminds me of The Gamer manhwa, where there's an entity called Gaia, which bestows chosen humans with special abilities and might aid them on these abilities, like turning someone's life into video game. Interesting stuff.
That slightly reminds me of The Gamer manhwa, where there's an entity called Gaia, which bestows chosen humans with special abilities and might aid them on these abilities, like turning someone's life into video game. Interesting stuff.
The G-Meister
Giga Slime
Please say you can dance your way to beating Zhamla because I would gladly spend days learning to piano-keyboard his theme tune. Reminds me of when I played Spore creatures for the DS and you could literally do that for the final boss (though a handy, albeit expensive unlockable cheat allowed you to perfectly do any dance you encountered).As much as I like the thought of Zhamla dropping the human card, by that logic Zhamla would again cease being a monster after you bait him with a golden... I dunno... what foods do wild Zhamlas like in their natural habitat? ...and competing the mini-game
res7less
Jumpkin
Most Arcade Mode players probably already built the Fae Tree, so I guess it's fine to comment on the events afterwards. I started with the most important buildings, of course, such as the farm and the aquarium, so I don't have it built yet, but as one of the translators, I've seen what will happen.
Well, to make a long story short, after helping Vavani save Biline, she states that Lost Souls are essentially monsters. Assuming we can trust her judgement and it's not a wickedly ploy of deception, it means several things and raises several questions.
- In Arcade Mode, monsters fight monsters
- Monsters may look human
- Humans don't know there are monsters among them
Some of the questions are, what's the point of the Arcade Mode within the world? Is it only for the Bishops' entertainment? Do they have ulterior motives to make monsters fight each other? Is it a process they initiated to gain essence? Why can they influence monsters and Lost Souls at will (Bishop challenges), while seemingly being unable to influence, when a Lost Soul appears?
We already established, that the Arcade Mode is the Trial of the Goddess before (and Trunk confirmed it, calling it Trail of the Goddess) and following the lore, at the peak of the mountain, the Goddess grants a wish. So, piecing those things together might make something like this:
Lost Souls are monsters, who are being controlled by us, players. But when we reach the peak, it's them who get a wish, since we are not being asked anything. So perhaps, old and experienced Souls get tired of being controlled one day and want to break free. And so, thousand years ago, one Lost Soul wished to become human. And since deities never grant wishes the way the wishers intend their wishes to be fulfilled, the Goddess granted this Soul's wish by turning him into a child and sealing his memory. And this child was Zhamla Meer.
Well... now, is he a monster or a human? I have no clue. But a subtle hint may be that in this world chicks never turn into chickens, so if Zhamla was a monster, he shouldn't be able to grow up. Or maybe he is part monster, which would make him the hybrid that I once called him, only that he is not related to the Goddess. That would be interesting, though, as being part monster he could, as KoBeWi said, drop a card, only that it wouldn't be a human card, but a Zhamla card. And there may be more of such hybrids in the world, all who were Lost Souls before. Buuuut, maybe, maybe, human baby, I guess we'll still have to wait to get more answers.
PS: There are more things to consider, like for example that, with our new knowledge, cards might only drop when monsters kill things. Trunk and Bag both mention how silent the main character/Lost Soul is and all we say are basic replies in dialogues, which may be an indicator for the main character and a Lost Soul share the same properties, making them both monsters. So far, we only know that cards drop when we kill things, and that Zhamla was collecting cards. There is this scene, where Luke kills the 100th Yeti, not getting a card and calling himself unlucky later on. The last observed card drop was, as Mr. Plott mentioned 50 years ago. Maybe Luke isn't unlucky and will never get a card because he is human. We don't know anyone besides us and Zhamla, who has ever gotten a single card. Sure, there's Griddle with a bunch of cards, but we don't know if they're monster cards. But those are only some thoughts without conclusion.
Anyways, more next time!
Well, to make a long story short, after helping Vavani save Biline, she states that Lost Souls are essentially monsters. Assuming we can trust her judgement and it's not a wickedly ploy of deception, it means several things and raises several questions.
- In Arcade Mode, monsters fight monsters
- Monsters may look human
- Humans don't know there are monsters among them
Some of the questions are, what's the point of the Arcade Mode within the world? Is it only for the Bishops' entertainment? Do they have ulterior motives to make monsters fight each other? Is it a process they initiated to gain essence? Why can they influence monsters and Lost Souls at will (Bishop challenges), while seemingly being unable to influence, when a Lost Soul appears?
We already established, that the Arcade Mode is the Trial of the Goddess before (and Trunk confirmed it, calling it Trail of the Goddess) and following the lore, at the peak of the mountain, the Goddess grants a wish. So, piecing those things together might make something like this:
Lost Souls are monsters, who are being controlled by us, players. But when we reach the peak, it's them who get a wish, since we are not being asked anything. So perhaps, old and experienced Souls get tired of being controlled one day and want to break free. And so, thousand years ago, one Lost Soul wished to become human. And since deities never grant wishes the way the wishers intend their wishes to be fulfilled, the Goddess granted this Soul's wish by turning him into a child and sealing his memory. And this child was Zhamla Meer.
Well... now, is he a monster or a human? I have no clue. But a subtle hint may be that in this world chicks never turn into chickens, so if Zhamla was a monster, he shouldn't be able to grow up. Or maybe he is part monster, which would make him the hybrid that I once called him, only that he is not related to the Goddess. That would be interesting, though, as being part monster he could, as KoBeWi said, drop a card, only that it wouldn't be a human card, but a Zhamla card. And there may be more of such hybrids in the world, all who were Lost Souls before. Buuuut, maybe, maybe, human baby, I guess we'll still have to wait to get more answers.
PS: There are more things to consider, like for example that, with our new knowledge, cards might only drop when monsters kill things. Trunk and Bag both mention how silent the main character/Lost Soul is and all we say are basic replies in dialogues, which may be an indicator for the main character and a Lost Soul share the same properties, making them both monsters. So far, we only know that cards drop when we kill things, and that Zhamla was collecting cards. There is this scene, where Luke kills the 100th Yeti, not getting a card and calling himself unlucky later on. The last observed card drop was, as Mr. Plott mentioned 50 years ago. Maybe Luke isn't unlucky and will never get a card because he is human. We don't know anyone besides us and Zhamla, who has ever gotten a single card. Sure, there's Griddle with a bunch of cards, but we don't know if they're monster cards. But those are only some thoughts without conclusion.
Anyways, more next time!
Another thing that always bugged me was the similarity between Marino and Amalet, but I could never find anything to connect it with. They're both green (or aquamarine, hence his name?) and they have a very similar personality, even partially using the same words. During the festival Marino says something like "A king leads his troops into battle" and after the Gun-D4m fight Amalet says "A king needs generals after all". And then there is the fact, that Marino is able to steal Amalet out of Bag without him understanding how he did it.
I think there is this special connection between some artifacts and their "intended" owners. This is the connection that allows them to make the artifacts teleport to them, the same way Zhamla does so with his sword. This is how Marino got Amalet, without realizing it.
Bag's personality (and color slightly) matches Zhamla's, both being the sassy smart-asses that they are.
There is also Luke with a matching artifact, color and personality-wise.
And there is one more artifact with a matching behavior, but perhaps only by coincidence, but the crown, it only said "...". And who else only says "..."? Morgan, Marino's buddy, who we know nothing about.
Just some food for thought.
They all could represent different aspects of Zhamla for some reason. Marino being speed, Luke being strength, Morgan being durability and Bag being... uh... sass? No clue, where it leads, though.
I think there is this special connection between some artifacts and their "intended" owners. This is the connection that allows them to make the artifacts teleport to them, the same way Zhamla does so with his sword. This is how Marino got Amalet, without realizing it.
Bag's personality (and color slightly) matches Zhamla's, both being the sassy smart-asses that they are.
There is also Luke with a matching artifact, color and personality-wise.
And there is one more artifact with a matching behavior, but perhaps only by coincidence, but the crown, it only said "...". And who else only says "..."? Morgan, Marino's buddy, who we know nothing about.
Just some food for thought.
They all could represent different aspects of Zhamla for some reason. Marino being speed, Luke being strength, Morgan being durability and Bag being... uh... sass? No clue, where it leads, though.
KoBeWi
Jumpkin
Um, I think he meant that it was last card drop during exam. Normal card drops shouldn't be that rare.
This really reminds me of Final Fantasy X and Pyreflies. When a human dies, he turns into cloud of Pyreflies, basically some soul particles. These wandering souls need to be sent to underworld by a Summoner. If they aren't sent, they eventually gather up and get a physical form, turning into Fiend (a monster). There are also people who refused to die and instead of turning into Pyreflies, they retained their physical appearance and continued to live. They are called Unsent. Not sure how much similar is that to Grindea and Lost Souls, but that was my first thought when I saw this sentence.
res7less
Jumpkin
KoBeWi
Jumpkin
Speculation time!
Here's the upcoming Orange Slime card:
IIRC, this is the first card with a human on it. What's more, it's a very specific person - the carpenter living in desert. What does it mean? Well it means either:
a) Card designs aren't age-universal. That means if you collect a Slime card and someone else collects Slime card 500 years later, it might have a different picture on it. That's why in the present Orange Slime card has Mallet on it, but didn't have her before she was born and will probably change after few decades as it won't make sense anymore.
b) Card designs don't change, but Orange Slimes are new species. As a consequence, Mallet was forever engraved on their card. Talk about being famous.
c) Card designs don't change and Mallet's existence for foretold since ancient age. She was destined to be born and be a desert's carpenter which would harness Slimes' power for her art. She is THE carpenter.
d) Devs didn't even think about any of above and how it affects lore, but just went with a cool design.
Here's the upcoming Orange Slime card:
IIRC, this is the first card with a human on it. What's more, it's a very specific person - the carpenter living in desert. What does it mean? Well it means either:
a) Card designs aren't age-universal. That means if you collect a Slime card and someone else collects Slime card 500 years later, it might have a different picture on it. That's why in the present Orange Slime card has Mallet on it, but didn't have her before she was born and will probably change after few decades as it won't make sense anymore.
b) Card designs don't change, but Orange Slimes are new species. As a consequence, Mallet was forever engraved on their card. Talk about being famous.
c) Card designs don't change and Mallet's existence for foretold since ancient age. She was destined to be born and be a desert's carpenter which would harness Slimes' power for her art. She is THE carpenter.
res7less
Jumpkin
Heheh.
