Rebalance Combat

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by TyBraniff, May 9, 2017.

?

What combat style do you focus on?

  1. 1 Handed

    46.7%
  2. 2 Handed

    20.0%
  3. Magic

    33.3%
  4. Hybrid / Well Rounded

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. d_nlo

    d_nlo Rabby

    I believe that in that case, when you have over 180ASPD the 20% DMG increase from the Attack Potion is better than the 10ASPD increase from the Haste Potion.
     
  2. MDK

    MDK Green Slime

    That is true. I didn't realize the bonus from gale potion was so low and the bonus from damage potion so high. This is also something that probably should be changed. I can't really see any build or situation where gale would be better than the damage potion.
     
  3. On top on about magic rebalancing...

    I have a lot of suggestions in mind. And so I'm gonna post them.

    I'm not saying put all of these in, though I would like one or two of them to be put in. I feel all of these could help magic users be brought up to par in some way.



    Casting Speed: We know how cast speed effects the speed of charging skills, but that also effects all builds, such as 1h and 2h (1h not as much since it's mostly just auto attacking, but I think you get my point).

    From my tests in a 2H Attack speed build, attack speed also makes melee skills be used faster along with making attacks swing faster (the speed of which I could preform the heroric strike animation with nearly 300 attack speed was impressive), so how about making casting speed play the casting animations faster for when using magic and support spells? This would help magic be just a little bit more faster and responsive in competition with the melee builds, which even 2h builds can be rather mobile, if you know what you're doing. And besides, if melee gets that benefit, then why can't magic?

    My main problem with magic (damage aside, which I'll get to), is that even with a high amount of casting speed, charging a fireball is not that great, when it takes longer for the animation to play than it does for me to physically charge it all the way to gold.

    Also, just launching fireballs en-mass might be fun. This could be combined in several ways, for several skills with a bit of tweaking such as the earlier suggestion in the thread of some magic spells keeping their charges like melee skills. And/or perhaps make a talent so that chaining spells together consecutively costs X% less EP.

    I can see many uses for something like this, such as mashing the button for meteor after releasing the first one would keep the meteor cursor in place, and raining down a bunch of meteors at a location until you stop or run out of EP, the rate of which meteors rain down would be based on your casting speed. This would make meteor unique, and probably look and feel awesome and have great utility, but at the risk of making you a lot more exposed if you are not positioned well.




    Summons and Energy: While 1h and 2h builds don't need EP to function, as in, even if they run out of EP, whacking foes upside the head with basic attacks is still a viable tactic (especially for 1h). A mage who has no EP just... sits there. Unless they want to bonk foes upside the head for miniscule damage with their wands. The fact that summons take a percentage of your maximum EP rather than a static number is really painful for mages. Even with the talents to reduce the summon cost and having 189 EP, I still have only 140 of my 189 of my EP available. That 49 whole whopping EP I can't use, just for having summons out. And these are just with bronze-charged summons. I'm pretty sure higher ranked summons lock more of the EP bar.

    I really think summons should consume a static number of your maximum EP (Say, 20+X amount of EP per skill point, rather than 25% of your EP bar).
    As of right now, the more EP you have, the more EP they consume -- and for absolutely no benefit. They require more upkeep, but they don't get any stronger. Why? This makes getting EP -- your main resource for everything as a mage, seem weak. As it currently stands, if you are a mage and want to use summons, your gear that grants bonus EP is only partially as effective as it could be, and mage gear is already pretty weak already. This makes EP increasing gear not even become an option, and the only way to help stave off energy problems is energy regen.
    ...Which goes into my next issue.



    Energy, Energy Regen: Energy regen in itself is not broken, but I think it could be revamped better.

    Sort of linking to the summons situation, if you use summons, then you are pretty much in need of energy regen gear. You may need this gear even if you DON'T use summons. This limits the amount of gear you can use. Currently, there's only three pieces of gear that I even use, or else my damage falls off considerably. And by that, I mean that I always run out of energy (Disclaimer: I don't use my summons when actually fighting -- only for farming). And again, I have 189 energy. 54 of that energy is thanks to my pet.

    That means my pet is level 28, and 54 energy is practically useless in comparison to how good the other stats are (How about 54% maximum HP? 28% more damage? You get the idea). 54 energy is good enough to cast two to three extra spells -- except 30% of that 54 energy may also be locked behind the summons. So if I'm farming, only two spells.

    My suggestion?
    First off, give the energy stats on pets a buff. +2 energy per point and no other benefit is just way too weak. It's probably the weakest stat on there by far. At least +3 energy per point. Or better, have it provide 2 energy, and +1 energy regen stat per point. This would help stave off the energy woes for more control-type mages who don't just build glass cannon and try to burst everything down with flamethrower.

    OR, rework how energy regen works entirely:
    Instead of recovery a static number of EP per second (like 5 per second no matter how large your energy pool is, which the regen speed only be increased solely by your energy regen stat from gear), have the base energy regen recovery speed be based off the maximum number of your energy bar.
    In explanation, let's say you regenerate 10% of your maximum energy per second instead. With 100 energy, I'd recover 10 energy per second. With my current energy of 189, I would recover 18.9 energy per second. And this number stays, even if I use summons which would cut off/lower the cap. So if I used summons which lowers my cap to 140 maximum energy, I'd still recover 18.9 energy per second.

    The energy regen stat itself could still be useful, as it would boost regen speed still. Every 1 energy regen stat would boost the rate of regen by 0.1%. So an energy regen stat of 60 for example, would allow the player to recover 16% energy per second, rather than a base of 10%.

    Going back to the 100 maximum energy example, If I have 60 energy regen stat, I would recover 16 energy per second instead of 10.

    OR, OR, Energy regen talent:
    Just a talent of some description would just help. Period. Whether it just add something like +3 energy per point for a maximum of 15, or you make it a talent that does something like I described (recover X% of max EP per second, per talent point).

    Finally, Make spells more potent: I will go onto my next point to explain this.


    Magic Weapons:

    Wands have Matk that's on par with melee weapons Atk. In fact, sometimes with the same number on gear of the same level. But magic doesn't hit nearly as often as melee weapons. Yeah, some of them have multiple hits (Flamethrower, Fireball), but the frequency of hits still isn't on par with melee weapons. Especially since one, energy woes, and two, getting hit while casting a spell like flamethrower requires you to charge it again (and thus consume more energy).

    Basically, just buff the damage on the Matk of wands. I don't think a large tweak should be needed, but it really puts me off when I can see someone able to do more damage with a melee strike AND hit more often AAANNND be mobile, than my spells do. Even if I flamethrower, it just doesn't even come close to comparing, because I have to spend so much of my gear just making sure I can cast the spells in the first place (3 gear slots just dedicated to energy regen, and a whole pet dedicated to my energy pool).

    And of course, if spells are just more potent, it means mages don't have to expend an entire energy bar to just kill one mob, which I frequently find myself doing at this point of the game despite my ridiculously large energy pool (looking at you, Echoes of Madness).

    Finally, having more wands have more special effects would help. For example, the Flower Whip, which increases the duration of plants, is a great example of a special effect on a wand done right. It has good stats, and it increases the potency of a spell (increases the duration of plant summons. More damage output! Less energy consumption!) And yet it is the ONLY wand in the game at this time to have a special effect.

    Thirdly; you can't even craft wands! Some of the best gear in the game is craftable so it shouldn't be no surprise why magic weapons are dwarfed by their melee counterparts. Why are there no wands on the list? They're all melee weapons with no fiber of magic in them! There isn't even any hybrid gear in there. Magic rework or not, add some cool weapons with magical prowess into the crafting table, please!
    If you can, give them special effects that make them unique and great in certain situations than other wands. For example, I still use the Flower Whip sometimes, even though its base stats are lower than a couple of other magical weapons, because its special effect can be a huge asset. Such as it was in the mimic fight, especially the first and second phase.





    I can't think of anything more for right now (It's 7 A.M. and I started writing this post at 5:43 A.M... And I haven't slept yet). As I said before, I'm not asking to add all of these in or anything. One suggestion probably inadvertently helps fix all the other problems after all. I.E., more damage on spells means less energy consumed, so the energy problem may go away. Or more energy may mean more damage, so the lack of DPS problem may go away. Or maybe a change to spell casting animations with the cast speed stat to be in line like melee skills and the attack speed stat could make everything feel and be just that much better.
     
  4. MDK

    MDK Green Slime

    I agree with the general idea of your post, but there are some parts that are a bit questionable.

    Casting Speed:
    When I read about attack speed effecting animation speed of melee skills it got me exited. However when I tested it out I could not see any change. I tested it out with Heroic Slam and Blade Flurry. I recorded both skills with no ASPD gear and with a ton of ASPD gear. Here is a video of the test.

    In both tests I have the 2 different setups layered on top of each other in the video. You can see that the background doesn't match since the player is standing on a different spot. However the character and the animation are perfectly matched. Most ASPD gear also comes with CSPD and haste spell also increases both so you probably have high CSPD in that gear as well.

    Summons and Energy:
    The blocked energy is a static value if you read the "More Info" panel. The amount however does go up with charges. It might appear to be percentage based when you are increasing both MaxEP and in summon skill levels at the same time.

    Energy, Energy Regen:
    I haven't really used EP Reg in any builds, but I like the general idea. Especially the one where the regen speed is tied to MaxEP. Something like this would also have nice synergy with my suggestion to change manaburn to work when the player is over 50% instead of under.

    Magic Weapons:
    I have a very similar view of this.
    quoting myself from post #9
    -for starters wands should have a ranged basic attack that scales with MATK instead of ATK. So at least when you are out of mana you can do some decent damage.
    The basedamage and scaling should of course be tweaked so people couldn't make overpowered basic attack wand builds. Mages should still be able to do decent damage with wands. In that earlier post I also had an example on how a build could work with some revamps and it mixed wand attacks with spells.

    With special effects I'm a bit torn. The flower whip is absolutely vital for a summon build, but at the same time I don't like the idea of finding a higher tier item with way better stats, but still forced to use a specialty item. I think if these special items are generally found late in the game and in for slots that don't have a big change in stats it could work very nicely. For example facegear slot would be perfect since casters tend to use hats that don't consume the facegear slot and facegear has very small amounts of stats in them.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  5. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    Is that the whole video? There seems to be only one side of the comparison.
     
  6. MDK

    MDK Green Slime

    The 2 sides of the comparison are layered on top of each other. Since the animations match perfectly it's hard to see. However if you look at the background they are not in sync since the player is not standing at the same spot. In the UI you can also see 2 different weapons in the basic attack slot.
     


  7. Hmm, that's weird. I wonder why I could heroric slam so fast then when my speeds were changed?

    Yeah, the character did have high Casting speed, but not as much as my mage has right now if he wears casting speed gear.

    However I haven't used that character in a while (I haven't done the 2h attack speed build since the festival update -- I think that was over a year ago). So I haven't touched that character in quite a long time. Maybe something, intentionally or not, changed then?

    Granted, you needed like an extra 200 speed to even see/feel a difference (Pure ASPD gear, fastest swinging weapon, all ASPD cards, golden charge ASPD/CSPD skill, a gale potion, and a very very high level pet with nothing but ASPD/CSPD), but I swear it was there. I thought it was a little bit of a gimmick that was just added into the game, since Secrets of Grindea was partly inspired by Ragnarok Online, which also does the same thing with attack speed as I described. Even for spell casting. Thinking back on my 2h build experience was what even gave me the same idea for magic in the first place.



    As for the summons, you're right. I don't know why I thought they worked like that, I was even playing the game to make sure. I guess I was more tired than I thought. >_<




    Edit: I just tried the 2H character build and it does feel different than before. If I had to estimate when the change happened, then I think it would maybe be when basic attacks were changed, so it was easier to spam very fast attacks as they would queue up.
     
  8. MDK

    MDK Green Slime

    Just tried out the re-balanced game. Looks really nice. A bunch of stuff I talked about got fixed. Seems like the devs were really listening to player feedback. Feels good.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017

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