Spells are very lackluster compared to melee?

[TwiiK]

Played some more yesterday. Reached level 14 I think. Tried some different "builds" with the /respec command.

The only spell combination I feel can measure up to melee is insect swarm + lightning cloud, and you could add the little ice buddy in there as well. It's very safe and you do not rely much on EP.

Going for a direct damage spell like fireball, meteor, chain lightning etc. makes you fade completely compared to your melee counterpart. If you focus on MATK weapons and items you'll not do any damage in melee, but you'll constantly be out of EP so I guess you have to use melee anyway. Also charging skills/spells is very cumbersome and is only really effective for out of combat buffs or summons. Charging a spell in combat often gets you killed. And the inherent low firerate of charged spells means your damage per second will be very low compared to a melee character chaining normal melee attacks and skills.

A melee character can for example take a 1-hander weapon, max shadow clone, silver charge it once, as it only ever needs to be cast once, and completely wreck everything without needing EP. And you'll be extremely nimble because you only do quick attacks before being able to dodge/block.

Or he can take a 2-hander and get whirling slash and your area of effect damage output will be greater than any possible spell combination.

The biggest problems for spells I feel is the low amount of EP you have in general and the high EP costs for spells. The EP recharge rate is also very low and the charge mechanic is very clunky to use in combat. Some base level tweaks, talents and items can perhaps fix all these issues.

 

[MrChocodemon]

I can see that someone reliying on magic really needs more EP and that this should be changed somehow. Maybe magic could cost a little less than the melee counterparts?

 

[Teddy]

First off, let me acknowledge that the skills in general certainly needs some balancing, in particular shadow clone and probably the insect swarm. The following wall of texts is not some kind of defensive stance, just me trying to explain some of my personal thoughts about designing spells vs melee (or rather ranged vs. melee) after many iterations

Now, onto magic/ranged versus melee:

The biggest issue with this from a balance perspective is that if magic does as much sustained DPS as melee, then melee is objectively worse. The inherent advantage of range is absolutely huge in most situations - you don't have to worry about 100 % of the enemies arsenal, which is the case for melee players. Ranged players need only worry about dashes and ranged attacks, while melee players must worry about those things and also they must worry about not getting swamped while dishing out their damage. Sure, there are some situations where the advantage is diminished, but there is not a single situation in our game where range is a disadvantage in itself.

As a result, judging the power of a build simply by how much damage one can output makes for a pretty skewed comparison. This is the reason many players choose to beat Arcade Mode using Insect Swarm and the cloud, despite melee skills being able to output higher DPS. I think those who can beat it in close combat gets significantly higher scores (or they at least should when spells and scores are balanced) due to floors taking longer to clear, which makes me not worry too much that magic is safer (though Insect Swarm might need a rework).

So, for you, whom I assume enjoy being in the midst of battle and using your shield, or have acquired powerful enough gear to just take all the blows, melee will always be stronger damage wise, and right now I feel that's how it should be. Otherwise it makes no sense for anyone to use it.

I know for a fact that there are a good deal of players who simply do not enjoy the high-risk high-reward play style of melee. Those players usually are not bothered by melee skills having higher DPS output, perhaps because they are more aware of the benefits of playing with range, since that's why they use it in the first place.

Then we have the hybrid spell of Flamethower, of course, which at least at one point was considered the spell for massive DPS. I'm actually not sure about the state of it right now, since it did get a slight nerf, but I think it's still pretty powerful? Could be it fell out of favor because the talents made shadow clone way too good, so that flamethrower builds simply couldn't compete anymore.

Sorry for the rambling. Don't hesitate to continue the discussion - these are just my general thoughts on the subject of balance

 

[Own]

First off, let me acknowledge that the skills in general certainly needs some balancing, in particular shadow clone

Wouldn't this be balanced by truly turning it into the Glass Cannon skill it's meant to be? High DPS, but low defense. The 1-handed version of Berserk.

You get shadowclones that increase your damage with chained hits, but you're also fracturing your spirit by creating ghostly clones of yourself. Overall armor is divided as your damage is increased. Maybe armor is 1/4 for bronze rank and 1/2 for silver rank.

 

[KoBeWi]

Wouldn't this be balanced by truly turning it into the Glass Cannon skill it's meant to be? High DPS, but low defense. The 1-handed version of Berserk.

You get shadowclones that increase your damage with chained hits, but you're also fracturing your spirit by creating ghostly clones of yourself. Overall armor is divided as your damage is increased. Maybe armor is 1/4 for bronze rank and 1/2 for silver rank.

What about clones also taking damage? You make multiple hits and take multiple hits. Seems legit.

 

[Own]

Lowered defense and your clones also taking damage seems... ridiculously broken. If the knights use their special attacks you pretty much instantly die from taking triple the damage. They're not solid so the 'they take hits' thing seems weird, but 'your body/spirit is stretched and weakened' at least makes some sense armor-wise.

 

[GarlicJelly]

I don't mind the idea that Shadow Clone should turn you into a glass cannon, it seems fair that the high damage would have a trade off. Having reduced Def or Max Health while Shadow Clone is active sounds reasonable. Maybe you could lose 15-25% Max HP for having Shadow Clone active? The low HP would only be a problem if you're not good at dodging or using the shield so there would be some more skill involved for using this otherwise super easy to use skill.

 

[KoBeWi]

Lowered defense and your clones also taking damage seems... ridiculously broken.

I meant they would only take damage, not lower defense.

 

[Teddy]

I'm not opposed to having Shadow Clone being like a one-handed Berserker Style; that's certainly one way to balance it.

What it was meant to be before we went and made it way too good on its own, was a way to boost the downtime DPS after using up all your EP.

As I see it, it could be balanced in either of these directions. Either we reduce DEF or lower maxHP (I'm spontaneously leaning towards reducing maxHP as a symbol of "splitting your soul"), or we reduce the damage boost and potentially lower the EP cost, to give it less of an impact.

The first option makes the spell more interesting on its own, while the second option makes it synergize better with the other one handed skills.

also the first option makes it a more interesting speedrunner's choice and that's always fun

 

[GarlicJelly]

I don't know if it would ruin the pattern to have a "Passive" skill in each of the three different skill types but Shadow Clone could also be made as a one-time-use kind of spell where you don't block out mana but it works just like any other skill and in return you get a limited number of attacks to use the Shadow Clone with. That way you would have more thoughts of how to use the skill in combat since spamming attacks maybe wouldn't always be such a good idea because you might miss and waste an attack or two. The mana cost could be very low but you're still forced to stop and charge it. Personally I'd like to keep the current Shadow Clone but I thought that I could share some thoughts of another way to balance the skill.

 

[Own]

also the first option makes it a more interesting speedrunner's choice and that's always fun

I thoroughly agree with a skill that caters to mastery of the game. If you can weave inbetween the enemies like a leaf on the wind and kill them without taking a single hit, great. If you can't, well, hope you can out-DPS the enemy before it damages you down.

just like any other skill and in return you get a limited number of attacks to use the Shadow Clone with.

Constantly stopping to recast it would probably kill the skill for me. I've actually given up on Frosty Friend because I get so tired of devoting so much time to endlessly reviving him. If he automatically revived at a % of HP after # seconds (outside of arcade mode, of course) I'd be much more inclined to using him. Maybe with an increasing auto-revival time each time he dies in the same room, or in the same general time period.

Edit Disregard this, at the time I didn't realize just how stupidly broken SC was. Limited attacks seems find in hindsight.

;;

 

[GarlicJelly]

I thoroughly agree with a skill that caters to mastery of the game. If you can weave inbetween the enemies like a leaf on the wind and kill them without taking a single hit, great. If you can't, well, hope you can out-DPS the enemy before it damages you down.



Constantly stopping to recast it would probably kill the skill for me. I've actually given up on Frosty Friend because I get so tired of devoting so much time to endlessly reviving him. If he automatically revived at a % of HP after # seconds (outside of arcade mode, of course) I'd be much more inclined to using him. Maybe with an increasing auto-revival time each time he dies in the same room, or in the same general time period.

I think the problem with the Frosty Friend is that he dies so easily. He's only good against enemies before the Flying Fortress, after that I think he's just a waste of skill points since he'll die way to often and his damage is not that great. It's been suggested earlier and I think that he should scale off your characters stats in terms of HP and Def.

 

[TwiiK]

I appreciate the thorough reply from Teddy, but my post wasn't directed towards game balance in particular. Although I can see that it appears that way. The feel of using spells is not good either in my opinion.

First of all, what I'm seeing in the game at the moment is a massive disadvantage for spells. Even if spells did twice the damage they currently do I still wouldn't use them. That's how extreme I think the imbalance currently is. There are multiple reasons for this from my point of view:

1. 4-directional aiming. Melee weapons, even 1-handers, have almost a 180 degree swing arc so the 4-directional aiming doesn't affect them all that much. But for spells like Fireball this is a huge disadvantage. Lining up these spells feels clunky and frustrating.
2. Spells like the pillar coming up from the ground and meteor are too slow for what they give you. The time you spend trying to aim those will put you in way more danger than if you are in melee range. And when they hit they barely do more damage than 1 swing with a melee weapon.
3. Most spells have a very low range. You'll at best get off 2-3 spells before enemies are in melee range and you're in exactly the same danger as someone using melee. 2-3 spells with the current damages of most spells won't kill a single enemy at your current level.
4. EP-costs. 2-3 spells may very well use up all your EP. You may have enough EP for 5-6 spells. But when you're out you'll be running in circles waiting to cast the next spell or swinging with your very subpar spell focused weapon.
5. Charging doesn't reward you enough. It only works for summons and buffs. Currently you only charge to save EP because spamming your spells would drain your EP too fast. But charging a spell to silver charge in the time you could have casted 3 of the same spell uncharged doesn't give you the reward you feel like it should. You'll move slow while charging, enemies will close in on you, you'll have a hard time dodging projectiles etc. etc. And all that just for a spell that is slightly stronger. Spamming your uncharged spells, and running in circles to regain your EP is a more viable tactic.

But then comes what I find most important. The feel of the game. The feel of swinging a sword or the feel of casting a spell. Currently in Grindea spells feel weak, they feel boring. By comparison melee feels pretty good. It's satisfying to keep a group of enemies away from your with your big 2-hander and then finish them off with a charged whirling slash or similar. I haven't been able to recreate that feeling with any spell combination. Some of the things I dislike:

1. Spells travel too slow and have too short ranges. If they traveled faster and flew further they would feel more powerful and you would also gain back more of an advantage towards melee.
2. Spells like meteor and the ground pillar are just weak. The meteor is tiny and same with the pillar. The area of effect should be equal to or bigger than whirling slash. And there should be debris flying far across the screen when you cast them.
3. The same with ice nova. I was expecting, or maybe hoping for, a large ice blast around my character freezing everything. Instead I get a small puff barely in melee range, which requires me to be in melee range as well for it to hit anything.
   
4. Area of effect spells in general have too small radiuses. They barely hit more than one enemy. Some of them I feel should hit 1/4 of the screen.
5. You mentioned Flamethrower which was a spell me and my friend ignored for a long time because both of us instinctively knew it would be like Inferno from Diablo 2, easily one of my least favorite spells from that game. And we were right. Flamethrower feels awful. The range is extremely low, the animations are slow, the effect is boring. In addition I was never able to use it safely because it doesn't deal enough damage per tick to cause enemies to stagger. I'm not entirely sure of the game mechanics at play here, but I feel like if you do enough damage in one hit enemies will stagger and you can interrupt their attack patterns etc. Flamethrower never does that so enemies walk right through and hit you in the face stopping your spell cast.
6. The high EP costs and low EP regen forces spell users to use melee to be effective. I dislike this very much from an immersion and role playing perspective. It doesn't feel good having to swing my crappy wand at enemies instead of using the spells I've trained in. I know this is a classless system and I prefer those. Games like Asheron's Call or Path of Exile are some of my favorite games, but you can still specialize entirely in one discipline in those games. EP in this games forces you to play a hybrid role.

I'm sure these last points conflict a lot with the design direction of the game and some, if not all, of them may be highly subjective, but they are just the things I expect in an enjoyable ARPG. And I also know this game is very different from your standard ARPG so I won't argue much more on this. I'll wait and see what the next updates bring.

But basically, I want to be able to specialize as a spell user and feel like a spell user, and I want the spells I use to feel good. Balance is not key for me. In many online games, even competitive games, I've opted for the build that felt the best over the one that was proven to be the most effective because that is what gives me the most joy from playing. Currently I feel specializing in spells in Grindea is both the worst and the least satisfying way to play.

 

[GarlicJelly]

1. Spells like the pillar coming up from the ground and meteor are too slow for what they give you. The time you spend trying to aim those will put you in way more danger than if you are in melee range. And when they hit they barely do more damage than 1 swing with a melee weapon.
2. Most spells have a very low range. You'll at best get off 2-3 spells before enemies are in melee range and you're in exactly the same danger as someone using melee. 2-3 spells with the current damages of most spells won't kill a single enemy at your current level.
3. EP-costs. 2-3 spells may very well use up all your EP. You may have enough EP for 5-6 spells. But when you're out you'll be running in circles waiting to cast the next spell or swinging with your very subpar spell focused weapon.
4. Charging doesn't reward you enough. It only works for summons and buffs. Currently you only charge to save EP because spamming your spells would drain your EP too fast. But charging a spell to silver charge in the time you could have casted 3 of the same spell uncharged doesn't give you the reward you feel like it should. You'll move slow while charging, enemies will close in on you, you'll have a hard time dodging projectiles etc. etc. And all that just for a spell that is slightly stronger. Spamming your uncharged spells, and running in circles to regain your EP is a more viable tactic.
5. The same with ice nova. I was expecting, or maybe hoping for, a large ice blast around my character freezing everything. Instead I get a small puff barely in melee range, which requires me to be in melee range as well for it to hit anything.
6. You mentioned Flamethrower which was a spell me and my friend ignored for a long time because both of us instinctively knew it would be like Inferno from Diablo 2, easily one of my least favorite spells from that game. And we were right. Flamethrower feels awful. The range is extremely low, the animations are slow, the effect is boring. In addition I was never able to use it safely because it doesn't deal enough damage per tick to cause enemies to stagger. I'm not entirely sure of the game mechanics at play here, but I feel like if you do enough damage in one hit enemies will stagger and you can interrupt their attack patterns etc. Flamethrower never does that so enemies walk right through and hit you in the face stopping your spell cast.

1. The damage and radius on those two spells are both pretty low at early levels. If you charge them up you gain a bigger area to hit enemies with and if you have enough time to aim them then you will always land a silver charged spell because the time you spend aiming will charge up the spell aswell. The damage they deal would have to do with balancing spells, these two were very powerful to spam before because they probably initially had high base damage but that got nerfed since it was too good. I would like to see a fairly low base damage but that these spells do huge damage if charged up (because charging up these spells should be encouraged).

2. Same here, low damage that could be changed to balance the gap between spells and melee. I like the suggestion of increasing the range and speed of at least some spells (Fire Ball?) because spending time to charge a skill should be more worth the effort and for spells to not feel useless because you never get enough time to charge them in combat.

3. The mana per damage ratio is super bad IMO but I guess this could be fixed by giving items like the wands +EP Reg so that a full mage build can be made without breaking the balance for the EP costs of melee skills, and/or spells could deal more damage.

4. Again, a balance issue where charged spells don't deal a lot more damage than non-charged spells.

5. Ice Nova gets bigger if you charge it to silver charge but the best thing with Ice Nova is that you add a debuff that slows enemies. This can be used to combo with melee or to be used as a mage's Whirling Slash to quickly interupt enemies very close to you. It's more of a utility spell than a damage spell IMO and therefor I don't mind the small radius because it's meant to be a close combat spell.

6. To stagger enemies you don't need to reach a certain amount of damage. Enemies are staggered because they are hit by a certain spell or attack so some attacks won't effect the enemies behaviour because they are not meant to do so. Some enemies are also immune to the staggering effect (like a Yeti or a boss) because otherwise the staggering effect would be way too strong and simply make combat too easy. The Flamethrower is at least supposed to deal a high amount of damage but if there was no risk involved to use the spell then it would be a better choise than any other spell which would in a way break the idea that every option should be equally good. At silver charge you can move around while using the Flame Thrower which makes up for the lack of mobility while using the spell so you don't get hit while using it.