Temple of Seasons is a little too "unclear".

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by MrChocodemon, Feb 11, 2015.

?

Did you get "stuck" or "lost" at least a little somewhere?

  1. Yeah, i got stuck once or twice.

    4 vote(s)
    26.7%
  2. Never!

    7 vote(s)
    46.7%
  3. I got heavily stuck.

    1 vote(s)
    6.7%
  4. Not really, but i was a little confused once.

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    In the german language we have the fitting word "unübersichtlich", which sadly, has no english translation. At least no real one.

    The first time i played the temple I often had no real sense of where to go next in some places and it seems I am not the only one having some trouble with that.
    This are not major things, and as soon as you cleared the dungeon once, you can play it nearly blindfolded.

    Because I didn't record my first time playing and can't ask myself how it went, I'm gonna ask my sister and my boyfriend and post their feedback and my analisys here later. This may take 1-2 days.


    My current guess is that some waypoints rely on details that are not visible enough and so they go by unnoticed.
     
  2. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    I myself never really get stuck in this game. At times I get a little confused but often it just takes a few more tries to figure something out and I'm fine with that, the game shouldn't be easy all the time and getting stuck on a puzzle should happen every now and then. In the case you're talking about I just think that it has to do with at what speed you're going through the game. If you're a medium-slow player you would stop in every room and explore everything at least for a little while before moving on. If you like to go fast you might miss some details but going back later will most of the time take care of that. When I first got into the Season Temple I could see where I was supposed to go but I decided to stop for a little while and appreciate the fine work the devs have made in designing the different rooms. It is obvious that the room with the statue in it has more importance than most of the other rooms since it's both spoken of in a dialogue and shows the "Season Temple" text to let the player know where they are. Because of this I took a little closer look at the room and I pretty quickly spotted the phase plate spots, the different paths blocked by snow and the switches. I can imagine that someone going a little fast might miss that there is a hidden phase plate under the ice and when you then later come back and hit the summer orb it gets hidden under a leaf so I think that's what can cause some confusion. However I don't think it's a major thing since trial and error can easily solve your problems (at least in this case).

    I'm still interested in what your sister and boyfriend think of it and if anyone else on the forum would like to share their thoughts on this. :)
     
  3. Own

    Own Moderator

    There is such a thing as making your game too linear too, remember. Having puzzles that rely on carefully inspecting the environment (walking under waterfall, seeing the phase pad) are mini-challenges.

    Some people may get stuck for a few minutes while they try and figure out what they missed, but that seems like an acceptable sacrifice to me. Because the alternative is a Hallway Simulator in the form of FF13. :p The Flying Temple already was extremely straightforward.
     
  4. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    Ok ok, you misunderstood me. Both!
    I don't mean puzzel rooms. The water-ice-block puzzel is a puzzle and i know that getting stuck in a puzzle is ok.

    And i don't mean that the dungeon is not linear enough. What i mean is, that while walking around for the first time, i sometimes just stood there and was like "where do i need to go next"


    This is not a major thing. But i think there could be some small improvements in the design.
     
  5. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Oh, well that's never happened to me either. :p Most of the paths are blocked off so the first time you enter a room you don't have many options anyways. And after that if you return to the same room again you now know that the path you just came from is not where you're headed next. I didn't think that there were any moments where I felt confused about where to go. Just like in the Flying Fortress you can just happen to go into the wrong room and just face a dead end but that just leaves you with less options for where you could try to go next. The trial and error method solves everything. :D
     
  6. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    First off I'm not offended with your opinion, but I want you to understand my viewpoint on this.
    My thought on this is, that games should be hard when it comes to battles and puzzles and not level design.

    Maybe it's just me, but i didn't really see the teleport pad in the main room that gets covered in summer and winter.
    It also took me some time to realise that the hydra room is also the main entrance (after the fight i teleported to Evergrind City for healing) and when i reentered the temple i was like "oh this is the entrance" and then i thought "nothing to see here", because i was here already. I never noticed really that this loop was to open the entrance to the right.

    I didn't open this thread to make a "This is definitly wrong with the temple" but more of a "I feel this could be a little better" as I noticed some small things that could be improved.
    Even if just a 1/10 of the players are just like me (or even worse) it will help them.
     
  7. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    I could not agree more on the hydra part. If you go back to heal, leave to buy some new items or just close the game and open it again then that part would confuse the hell out of you. There should be some kind of mark or something over the door that you gain access to with the summer orb in the enterance room that shows that there is a curse or something there that will also draw the players attention when entering the room. If the door was shining or maybe if there was a hydra head over the door that suddenly had glowing eyes when you hit the summer orb to indicate that that path is now open then there's no way that anyone can miss it.

    I'm still not ready to change my opinion on the hidden phase plate but if more people (maybe some new players that aren't that used to the game yet) feel like they had way too much problem finding their way then I won't be that guy that says "NO!!!!!!".
     
  8. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    And for that i'll try to get my boyfriend and my sister as test persons.

    muahahahua

    [​IMG]
     
    GoodStuff likes this.
  9. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    There is no cake! The cake is a lie!
     
  10. Seily

    Seily Green Slime

    The season temple remembered me my first experience with a Zelda game : the pleasure of exploring and discovering new paths and way to reach some places you have seen earlier, as you progress in the temple.

    I have never been stuck for too long, probably because I'm used to this kind of non-linear progression ... and at first, I didn't understand what bothered you. But, with a little thought, I think I can say why the season temple get you those trouble that you wouldn't had with an other non-linear game like the Zelda series, and it's not a misconception of the dungeon...
    You just need a little feature that has helped us at many time when we were lost and desperate in a dungeon in a Zelda game :
    you need a dungeon map.
     
    MrChocodemon likes this.
  11. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    That would actually be pretty cool. :D Just having a basic map that gets filled out as you navigate through the different rooms (like in Arcade Mode). I'm sure that's something a collector could do, making maps/collecting data from a temple to gather for the library section in the HQ could easily be woven into the story so that the map system is part of the story.
     
    MrChocodemon likes this.
  12. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    ^This!
    +1
    Thumbs up
    etc.
     
  13. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    So, my Boyfriend played it and ... did get stuck, but not in the dungeon.
    He didn't have any problem with the season temple.
     
  14. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    I'm assuming he got sucked into the game just like all us other suckers.... XD
     
  15. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    Not really. He lost Marino and thought he ran off into the snowy area and it took him an hour finding where Marino went.
     
  16. Own

    Own Moderator

    I've seen other people run east out of town. Maaaybe you should be unable to leave the town east/west or teleport until you chase Marino down south out of the city, with Bag saying "We've got to find that prissy cutpurse!" or something.
     
    MrChocodemon and Teddy like this.
  17. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Haha, fair enough. :D
     
  18. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    @Sean6258 posted this in his First Impression post:
    • Confusing elements: At one point in the Temple of Seasons, you use a phase plate (or whatever they're called) to warp towards the lower section of the room. In any other season, it is near impossible to see the phaseplate. I suggest some way to see it more clearly in other seasons.
    Since we have some players that find the Temple confusing maybe we should try to think of some kind of way to point the player in the right direction? The first that comes to mind is to use Naniva as some kind of guide. She has the personallity to point out the obvious and maybe you could give the player the option to toggle her "Help!" dialogue on and off when she joins your part? Basically the player gets a popup window that asks if the player wants to enable Naniva's navigation help. If you choose "Yes" then she'll make some obvious observations when you enter a room. I don't know much about coding and how to implement dialogue but if everyone helped out to come up with different hints Naniva could say when you enter a room then adding this Guide option shouldn't be too hard (I think). :p
     
  19. Own

    Own Moderator

    You could just have Naniva flutter over the spot where the phase plate is hidden when the player first gains access to it, before it's used for the first time.

    That way they know something is there, just not what. Navi hovered over potential secrets in Ocarina of Time, she never went blatantly "HEY LOOK WHAT'S THIS RIGHT HERE?".
     
  20. GoodStuff

    GoodStuff Friendly Moderator :)

    Yeah but I think that would be harder to implement than just having Naniva saying something like "Hey, is that one of those phase plates you told me about?" (Winter) or "What? Where did the phase plate go?" (Summer) :p
     

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