The 2-Handed Raw Damage Bias is in Need of Attention

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by The G-Meister, Apr 19, 2016.

  1. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    I didn't really look into the details, but I think you're not looking at it accurately enough. The amount of data you'd need to figure out if 2H is better than 1H is not available to you. I'm not even sure if the devs have that kind of tech in the program. It is Adobe after all.

    That aside, it'd take hours upon hours in each map testing various combat styles with each type of weapon to get a more conclusive idea of how balancing is. Then there's the issue of skills, which completely change how combat works in the game. A new player isn't going to use a wand to attack with because, let's face it, it's absolutely useless without actual spells. That's just concept and design though, and the wand certainly helps a mage keep up in DPS.

    I'm not going to suggest giving up on your goal of figuring out if 1H/2H is balanced, but you've got about 3,000 hours to cover the maps accurately enough with some kind of data tracking program. Good luck with that. :)
     
  2. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    Why do we need to look at it accurately? Looking at those numbers a 2.26 times better dps against multiple enemies is a huge variation and is significant enough, with all the extra reasoning I've provided to you. If I did anything else I'd calculate the rough amount of times you're in a 1 v 1 situation, and the amount of times when you're against multiple enemies, then do some number juggling to come up with a more accurate answer, but then you can't be too sure if you're correct about that proportion, and nor can you account for how much of an advantage shield cancelling gives you.

    I've seen you stream a mage build. I'm not in any doubt that you're capable of a 2H build. Go show me that a 1H build (without spirit slash) is on par with both of those.
     
  3. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    Alright. I'll post a video in this comment in a couple minutes. I'll try to cover some of the basic skills/spells and their damage, using close to equivalent weapons etc.

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2016
  4. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    And you're only using gigaslime? The whole point was to get a general situation. That's the reason I used Gauntlet I at level 10 to do my testing, which is the situation people forget - multiple enemies. It is only then that the range of a 2H weapon makes it vastly better than a 1H weapon.

    You're covering skills. I was investigating into the weapons themselves. I admit maybe my title isn't that clear, but you would get the gist of what I was on about if you read the post.
     
  5. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    "Go show me that a 1H build (without spirit slash) is on par with both of those.". Again, the amount of times most people will actually use their weapons instead of their skills is quite low. The damage difference vs. AoE is fine. The game is far too easy to be worried about one weapon having slightly more range and the other doing a bit more damage.

    SoG isn't at that level of difficulty right now where those kind of numbers matter. In pvp we'll just have to see. Depending how the devs make pvp, 1H or 2H could be superior. I doubt it'll be as absurd of an advantage as you think.
     
  6. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    I'm... just not gonna bother anymore. I clearly can't convince you to try a 1H auto attack build, and neither do you want to believe anything that I'm saying. At this point we're practically kids yelling "Yes!" and "No!" but in a slightly more civilised manner. I've refuted at least half the stuff you said already, but I've got better things to be doing than quoting myself.

    Anyway, update 3: Just had a good run ruined by a room containing 2 crystal spawners (one of which got protected by a Guardian) a Wisp, Brawler Bot and Pecko. Shame really. Total time is around 4:30:00.
     
  7. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    Even though I used the main skill that involves 1h auto attacking in the video.
     
  8. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    First of all, if we're talking about DPS: 1H wins. By at least 10%. So single target or bossfights, 1H may or may not have an advantage. Then in environments where the monsters don't really matter, the 2H can be better sometimes.

    In a game where a person will be using their skill more often than their weapon, this difference isn't really noticeable. It's almost like complaining how the wand only does about 10 dmg as a starter weapon. Again, unless you've done 3,000 hours of data collecting, the difference between the three base weapons is negligible.
     
  9. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    And now you're quoting yourself... What are you trying to achieve? I've replied to that already as well.
     
  10. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    Where am I quoting myself?
     
  11. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

     
  12. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    Ah see, now YOU are quoting yourself. I haven't quoted myself once. I've repeated my opinion on how to form enough data to have a relevant and accurate discussion about the balance of the three main weapons. Yet alas, you've seemed to miss that point.

    I doubt even the mods/devs will do anything other than look at your thread/post and perhaps consider putting more effort into data collection. That's about anyone can do for SoG right now, and it's rather pointless to do until a full release of the game.
     
  13. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    I didn't miss it, you just never replied to the fact that I wrote that paragraph. There is a point where a rough study becomes significant enough that it doesn't matter that there's quite a large margin for error - there's even mathematical calculations for it, but they don't fit for this type of study.

    [Edit]: I take that back. They do, and I'll set about doing this scientifically accepted formula for if something is statistically significant once I've done my chemistry homework.
     
  14. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    The point is your thread already contradicted your argument. 10% more damage on the 1h at the cost of less AoE. So in the end it'll roughly end up around the same damage. The 2H may hit a couple more creatures, but it won't bring down a boar as fast.

    The real problem monsters are usually the ones you can't get with AoE, unless it's something like jumpkin. In the end 1H and 2H weapons kill monsters differently and struggle in different areas.
     
  15. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    Did you look at the numbers? Anything with more health you can often shield cancel attack anyway. And there I go, repeating myself.
     
  16. Ardeof

    Ardeof Rabby

    Yep. Again i'm not convinced until I see some actual numbers from hours and hours of gathering information. Otherwise it's mostly your opinion with a bit of numbers to be convincing.
     
  17. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    That part would've been more helpful earlier, which would've prevented us going round in circles. I'm in the process of that now. Once I've run the 2H build, I'll run it with a 1H sword instead, and then compare the differences in the times of rooms.
     
  18. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    After about another 3 hours of fumbling around, I've had a much better idea which gives a more representative test. If I can find a seed which contains no Marino (as I'm more interested in survivability) I will run it to Winter x number of times with the same skill build, using a 1H sword or a 2H sword. I'll then compare the average times of rooms, average damage per floor, and the total score at the end of the run.

    I'll look for a few consistencies in the seed as well, such as getting equivalent swords at the same time. Instead actually, I might just buy swords to make sure they're always fair. Does anyone think this isn't a fair test?
     
  19. Pharphis

    Pharphis Rabby

    more information never hurts :p
     
  20. For me 1h deals moar damage then 2h,but i may just suck at shield canceling :p
     

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