Various thoughts on combat and dodging/blocking

Serzha

Green Slime
Let me start with this:
I've played most of the game on the non-frontline part on steam, and there is one very significant change between that and frontline, and most of my hatred for the Block mechanic probably stems from that.
This change is that repeated attacks are no longer direction-locked (which also causes Block to be that on the 'stable' steam version), as in on frontline you can change which direction you're swinging your weapon in between each attack without pausing for ~1 second. On the non-frontline version this repeatedly caused me to be entirely incapable of Blocking in any direction other than the one I was already attacking in.

On the frontline I've basically only been using Dodging Strike, as again, I already have a strong dislike for Block.
After farming 3/5 of the Tai Ming cards I feel like I can at least provide some feedback on how the various skills feel against the enemies there, and also some of the flaws (both of Block, and of Dodging Strike) I feel there are.


First off, Dodging Strike feels far better when it comes to active combat.. perfect dodges give you an audible response, just like perfect Blocks do, however it also comes with some significant disadvantages compared to Block, and some of these actually make perfect dodges something you want to avoid using while fighting multiple mobs at once.

Dodging makes you leap backwards (into whatever is there, probably damaging you unless you position yourself carefully), and also not always tossing you far enough back to actually avoid a lot of the larger attacks from various monsters. A good example of this is the Echo of Madness, where they love to move practically on top of you while charging their swing, and attempting a perfect dodge will half of the time cause you to still get hit by their very large attack swing ( due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be any invulnerability frames as far as I can tell). This is especially obvious when fighting them together with the Thorn-worms, which will dig through your path.. and dodging these in a regular fashion is actually not possible, you simply avoid the spike that is under you at the moment, and into the next spike behind you. Either increasing the distance you leap back slightly so you can actually avoid full attacks, or adding a very slight invulnerability frame during perfect dodges would greatly improve how the skill feels.


This brings me to the second problem I have with Dodging Strike: The return retaliating strike after you dodge.
If you're against only one enemy, this usually functions as you'd expect, you dodge the attack and you hit them back pretty hard... unless they have fast attacks, or large attacks. Against both fast-attacking enemies and enemies with large attacks you generally get your perfect dodge que, and instantly have your channel broken, or your returning dash is interrupted due to the enemy attacking too fast.. or you simply cannot reach the enemy, because the returning dash is about the same, or shorter distance than the initial dodge.

Against multiple enemies this is especially apparent, where the most likely outcome of attempting to do a perfect dodge is it working initially, then instantly being broken either during your 0.5 second channel, or during your returning dash, or your returning dash simply not connecting with the enemy. At least one of these changing would again help the skill feel better. (Increasing returning dash range slightly to help it connecting easier, adding a very slight invulnerability frame to the returning slash so it is more likely to not break, or increasing the distance you jump back a bit more so it is less likely you'll get hit again during your charge-up.)

Now to compare this skill to Block.. Block has some significant advantages over Dodging Strike:
Perfect blocks instantly stun the enemy, where Dodging Strike requires you to connect with your returning dash to gain that benefit.
Blocks do not move you, and thus you cannot get hit more than once by the same skill (if you count the 'perfect dodge' as a hit). This is very apparent against Thorn-worms as their digging through you only connects once while Blocking, whereas dodging generally just gets you hit regardless.
Blocks can return enemy projectiles (and this is generally the only reason I ever use Block), Dodge cannot, which is reasonable as it has an attack as part of it's defensive abilities.
Block is only one direction: Directly in front of you, if something comes at an angle it will still hit you 'outside' the block. This is more apparent with projectiles than anything else though. Dodge will for the most part take you out of a diagonal projectile's path.

This last detail is probably why I ended up replacing Block entirely with Dodging Strike. Pre-emptively dodging (not attempting a perfect dodge) generally is far safer than actually blocking, especially against bigger enemies, and the fact that you can instantly dash AWAY from the enemy in question also adds to Dodging Strike's utility.

Generally: It feels like Block is a bit too weak (in terms of the directions it works in, adding an additional pixel's width to the angle would probably make it a lot less... finnicky. Alternatively making it so that if part of an attack hits the front of the shield it would be blocked, instead of dealing full damage. (I'm not too sure if this has been changed compared to the current version on Steam as again, I am avoiding using Block more than necessary.. though I'm fairly aware of how strong it is overall.)
Slightly altering any of the above with Dodging Strike would greatly improve how it feels overall.
 

Dzed

Green Slime
Let me start with this:
I've played most of the game on the non-frontline part on steam, and there is one very significant change between that and frontline, and most of my hatred for the Block mechanic probably stems from that.
This change is that repeated attacks are no longer direction-locked (which also causes Block to be that on the 'stable' steam version), as in on frontline you can change which direction you're swinging your weapon in between each attack without pausing for ~1 second. On the non-frontline version this repeatedly caused me to be entirely incapable of Blocking in any direction other than the one I was already attacking in.

On the frontline I've basically only been using Dodging Strike, as again, I already have a strong dislike for Block.
After farming 3/5 of the Tai Ming cards I feel like I can at least provide some feedback on how the various skills feel against the enemies there, and also some of the flaws (both of Block, and of Dodging Strike) I feel there are.


First off, Dodging Strike feels far better when it comes to active combat.. perfect dodges give you an audible response, just like perfect Blocks do, however it also comes with some significant disadvantages compared to Block, and some of these actually make perfect dodges something you want to avoid using while fighting multiple mobs at once.

Dodging makes you leap backwards (into whatever is there, probably damaging you unless you position yourself carefully), and also not always tossing you far enough back to actually avoid a lot of the larger attacks from various monsters. A good example of this is the Echo of Madness, where they love to move practically on top of you while charging their swing, and attempting a perfect dodge will half of the time cause you to still get hit by their very large attack swing ( due to the fact that there doesn't seem to be any invulnerability frames as far as I can tell). This is especially obvious when fighting them together with the Thorn-worms, which will dig through your path.. and dodging these in a regular fashion is actually not possible, you simply avoid the spike that is under you at the moment, and into the next spike behind you. Either increasing the distance you leap back slightly so you can actually avoid full attacks, or adding a very slight invulnerability frame during perfect dodges would greatly improve how the skill feels.


This brings me to the second problem I have with Dodging Strike: The return retaliating strike after you dodge.
If you're against only one enemy, this usually functions as you'd expect, you dodge the attack and you hit them back pretty hard... unless they have fast attacks, or large attacks. Against both fast-attacking enemies and enemies with large attacks you generally get your perfect dodge que, and instantly have your channel broken, or your returning dash is interrupted due to the enemy attacking too fast.. or you simply cannot reach the enemy, because the returning dash is about the same, or shorter distance than the initial dodge.

Against multiple enemies this is especially apparent, where the most likely outcome of attempting to do a perfect dodge is it working initially, then instantly being broken either during your 0.5 second channel, or during your returning dash, or your returning dash simply not connecting with the enemy. At least one of these changing would again help the skill feel better. (Increasing returning dash range slightly to help it connecting easier, adding a very slight invulnerability frame to the returning slash so it is more likely to not break, or increasing the distance you jump back a bit more so it is less likely you'll get hit again during your charge-up.)

Now to compare this skill to Block.. Block has some significant advantages over Dodging Strike:
Perfect blocks instantly stun the enemy, where Dodging Strike requires you to connect with your returning dash to gain that benefit.
Blocks do not move you, and thus you cannot get hit more than once by the same skill (if you count the 'perfect dodge' as a hit). This is very apparent against Thorn-worms as their digging through you only connects once while Blocking, whereas dodging generally just gets you hit regardless.
Blocks can return enemy projectiles (and this is generally the only reason I ever use Block), Dodge cannot, which is reasonable as it has an attack as part of it's defensive abilities.
Block is only one direction: Directly in front of you, if something comes at an angle it will still hit you 'outside' the block. This is more apparent with projectiles than anything else though. Dodge will for the most part take you out of a diagonal projectile's path.

This last detail is probably why I ended up replacing Block entirely with Dodging Strike. Pre-emptively dodging (not attempting a perfect dodge) generally is far safer than actually blocking, especially against bigger enemies, and the fact that you can instantly dash AWAY from the enemy in question also adds to Dodging Strike's utility.

Generally: It feels like Block is a bit too weak (in terms of the directions it works in, adding an additional pixel's width to the angle would probably make it a lot less... finnicky. Alternatively making it so that if part of an attack hits the front of the shield it would be blocked, instead of dealing full damage. (I'm not too sure if this has been changed compared to the current version on Steam as again, I am avoiding using Block more than necessary.. though I'm fairly aware of how strong it is overall.)
Slightly altering any of the above with Dodging Strike would greatly improve how it feels overall.
Dodging Strike can be used flawlessly on an Echo, it just takes practice and timing, like every other skill that is marked to take "High Skill"
 

Serzha

Green Slime
Dodging Strike can be used flawlessly on an Echo, it just takes practice and timing, like every other skill that is marked to take "High Skill"
Only if you are positioned well (as in the mob doesn't decide to stand in your face for some reason) and the mob doesn't 'follow' you while attacking, which happens every now and then.

I have no problem dodging most of them, but every now and then they start too close or follow me, which causes problems, the same is technically true with the plants earlier on, but those are immobile so it doesn't really count.
 

The G-Meister

Giga Slime
Having been an extensive user of both of these, a lot of this is true, but one thing I think you're missing form the perfect dodge is that, for any individual attack, if you perfect dodge it, it can't do any damage to you. The best example of this is with homing Wisp projectiles on Hard. If you perfect dodge one, it will attempt to keep homing to you, and simply keep orbiting around your body until it runs out of homing time, not doing any damage. Whether this changes your play style or not is an entirely different matter, but I thought I might point it out.

As for how I use these, I actually use both in combination for different situations. There are some where a block is almost or completely useless (enemies that jump on you, Yeti's breath, Guardian lasers) and others where a perfect dodge is impractical or completely useless (Thorn Worms, Echoes, most projectiles, Elite Brawler Bots). Using both like this allows to respond to a much wider variety of situations in multiple ways.

Also, normally when you're being attacked by multiple enemies (especially larger ones), you're pretty screwed anyway. Blocking is normally successful, but you often get locked into your shield by multiple attacks and quickly lose your shield for when a perfect guard and an instant silver charge may be useful. Perfect dodging out of a situation like this can actually prove helpful if you hold the dodge charge for a second or two, then dash through the enemies after they've moved. Breaks them up somewhat allowing you to get a couple hits in.

And again, that instant silver charge from a perfect block, combined with the stun from a perfect guard works great with skills like Warrior Spirit (or Spirit Slash, whatever it's called) and Blade Flurry. You've also got the fact that it reflects projectiles, making the shield my best offensive weapon against Frostling Rogues and Wisps.

However, the stun from a silver charge perfect dodge is actually longer and can hit multiple enemies, plus if you have it up to Silver charge you also get that instant silver charge like the Perfect Guard does.

Really the problem with multiple enemies though is that 1H is most definitely not designed for it. Even in a 1 on 1 situation, 2H performs quite well compared to 1H due to skills like heroic slam and the popular use of shield cancelling, but then it performs much better over 1H when dealing with multiple enemies, simply due to the large area of the hit.

Just try using them both. They're not mutually exclusive after all :p
 
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