What's the design philosophy behind Arcade advancements in the dungeon itself?

[Own]

I was thinking a while back to when I suggested Chica raise chickens, and for every (n+1) essence you gave her, she expanded the number of chickens in her coop and you started the run with 1 extra egg you could sell. So 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (15 total) essence you start with 5 eggs to be sold for 10 gold each. As an "I have nothing else to spend essence on" dump.

But then I realized the current known design plan is:

1. You get three perks.
2. You can also have three curses, or three buffs.

So it seems unlikely that you'll be able to build a Dojo that lets you permanently start with 1 skillpoint in a random melee skill, or a Wizard Tower that does the same for a magic skill.

Does that mean the dungeon advancement with regards to Arcadia advancements is capped at what three perks you pick? Or would town upgrades (NPCs or buildings you buy/upgrade with gold) be able to provide not-necessarily-objectively-character-empowering benefits like:

1. Increased chance of Bishop challenges.
2. Increased appearance of Nurses.
3. Increased shopkeeper inventory.
etc

In Spelunky all you can do is unlock new characters, who have nothing unique about them. In A Wizard's Lizard, the more villagers you rescue the more gold you start with. In Our Darker Purpose, you gradually unlock additional perks over time which can do many complex things, and achievements unlock things as well I think. Spelunky is all about it's leaderboard system, though, and I don't know if AWL or ODP has that sort of competitive nature.

 

[Teddy]

A good question!

While I frankly believe the swiftest road to mass popularity would be to turn it into an addictive stat grinder à la Rogue Legacy (a game I enjoyed very much, so no bash intended), we've decided to keep it as a mode where player skill is by far the biggest factor, as opposed to RNG or passive character upgrades.

We feel it complements Story Mode better that way, and that it's more interesting to have players mainly grow their understanding of the game rather than slowly overpowering the opposition until [last dungeon] becomes what Pillar Mountains used to be (which is what happens in Rogue Legacy, and can happen in Story Mode).

I acknowledge that RL is an extreme example, and that we could cap the upgrades at a low enough point that the mode is still a decent challenge. But, the only real value I see in such a system is the following scenario: if people play Arcade Mode for X hours they will get hooked on climbing by improving their skill, but if they get tired before that happens they just quit and never come back. In such a scenario, spoon feeding some cheap dopamine until that breaking point is hit would be a sensible thing.

Frankly, that's kind of how it is right now! After all, the reason why we're revamping the Arcade Mode to become a bit more accessible, and letting people become more invested in Arcadia, is because we hope this will be enough to let people ease into the mode and start enjoying it.

(...and also there were a lot of ideas and suggestions for buildings/NPCs and we were running out of space )

As for perks (and possibly potions after their rework), yes, these are things that are unlocked and most certainly improves the character. I'm not sure how people feel about the perks right now honestly, but our hopes are that when the mode is more refined, they will allow for some interesting choices regarding play styles!

Basically, I doubt we'll add anything that simply provides a flat, objective benefit in a run. In fact, all your suggestions are things I could instead see in the form of perks

PS: It should be noted that we don't exactly laid down a design bible on all this, so don't shoot me if Fred and Vilya play Rogue Legacy tomorrow and then strong arm me into making Arcade Mode the proper stat grinder it was always meant to be!

 

[Own]

So essentially the goal is for Arcadia's town to become like Wizorb's town, from memory. Something you build up over time but it doesn't really make the game any easier, it's just something to feel good about doing, a town you can lay claim to, built up bit by bit.

I don't think I'd mind that. Though there is something to be said for the addiction of gradually unlocking things and seeing them change the way you play, ala Binding of Isaac...

If I had to choose between it all, I do think I'd prefer "More Options" advancement over "More Power." The things you add to the dungeon don't make you objectively stronger, they just add a different way to do things.

Like a lot of the different NPCs rooms I suggested in the dungeon. You can get an item from Dr. Jones NPC room and be hit with a curse for a while, but that's not necessarily objectively better or worse than the boar 'Don't Get Hit' room. It's a different sort of challenge, and adding him to the NPC room pool by rescuing him in the dungeon is just a "More Options" method. I'm sure a lot of players would be eager to see how exactly the NPCs they rescued in the dungeon work the next time they dive into it, if they're not ones that get added to the town.

So yeah, maybe stick with the perks system and have unlocking things around Arcadia make available more perk slots to you from constructing buildings or upgrading them. Things that don't trivialize your game, but help you shape it.

Dojo? Adds 'Begin with 1 random 1H melee skill point' perk option (that only changes to another when you beat floor 1, to avoid quick and dirty randomization scumming.)

Church? Adds 'Guaranteed nurse per floor' perk, or 'Doubled bishop spawn chance.' perk.

(...and also there were a lot of ideas and suggestions for buildings/NPCs and we were running out of space )

Keep designing NPCs and I'll keep finding out bizarre ways they could actually be mechanically useful in Arcadia. After playing through every Suikoden game (each having 108 recruitable characters and most changing your castle in some unique way), it's easier to look at type of character and figure out "What could you possibly do..."

 

[res7less]

Do you plan to monetize the Arcade Mode after release in any way? Perhaps DLC-wise? Because judging by the amount of care and dedication you put into polishing and fine-tuning, you will surely want to support the game after release. So, right now it sounds like you will be putting in extra time into it without any payoff (except for the hopefully wildfire-like spreading popularity and thus a grindillion purchases). After all, what's the point of creating something addictive without being able to somehow turn that into income?

 

[Teddy]

Do you plan to monetize the Arcade Mode after release in any way? right now it sounds like you will be putting in extra time into it without any payoff

If we were to make a paid DLC it would have to add something very significant, I think. We have no plans either way regarding that!

A piece of trivia about Arcade Mode is that it exists solely thanks to Early Access! We added it to give players something to sink some time into after beating the Story Mode. Now that it's there, we might as well try making the best of it!

We don't really do cost analysis here at Pixel Ferrets (quite obviously), but if we can make it more appealing to the average player the Arcade Mode might actually turn out to be a surprisingly good investment! From what I've gathered, Steam's recommendation systems are very influenced by player activity (playtime basically), so if we can give players a reason to stick around with the game I think we might stand to gain a substantial Long Tail Powered by Steam™

Plus, as you said, if players enjoy the game more it will likely sell better for that reason as well!

 

[KoBeWi]

Uh, no paid DLCs. I'd keep the free post-release support and updates like in Terraria, and keep the cancer out of the indie game industry.

An idea would be to make Arcade as one of the selling points of Grindea. Players have to know that a separate mode like this exists, and this might bring people who will buy this game only for the Arcade Mode. If it becomes so overgrown, you will basically make a second game for free, because you will have engine and all assets from Story Mode.

 

[res7less]

If we were to make a paid DLC it would have to add something very significant, I think. We have no plans either way regarding that!

You should definitely give it a thought or five. As of now, you haven't released and already have a fairly big and loyal community (my humble self included), who are willing to support your hard work by handing over some coins if they can. I'm not much into Arcade Mode myself, but I'm sure there are ways to expand it, shaping it in a modular way, allowing future new content to be added in a form of new challenges, new areas et cetera. All that could ensure long-term income beyond that of the sales themselves.

Uh, no paid DLCs. I'd keep the free post-release support and updates like in Terraria, and keep the cancer out of the indie game industry.

Developers need money to live as well, you know? Nowadays customers are spoiled beyond comprehension, expecting to get much for nothing - I'm very familiar with that problem. If you're enjoying something someone else did, you should be willing to pay for it. I'm not familiar with Terraria - are they releasing free new content?

 

[KoBeWi]

I'm not familiar with Terraria - are they releasing free new content?

Yes, they just keep giving free updates. And you know what? They are successful. Recently they reached 20 million copies sold. They are supporting their game for years, but they still earn money from new players that come (8 million copies in last 2 years). That's how make games - people buy it, because it's good and they see that developers actually care.

On the other hand, we have companies like EA, Ubisoft or Activision. They spend thousands to develop a game and rely only on the sales in first few weeks/months. They make game SOLELY to make money, playing on people's naivety and releasing rushed and bugged junk just to milk the franchises they established. Prominent example is what μbi did to Heroes of Might and Magic, releasing 7th installment flooded with bugs, which then they tried to fix. Not full 2 years after release, they dropped support for the game, leaving all the bugs and advising players to "contact customer support" with their problems.
Anyways, I was going to write about DLCs, which are another cancer of the industry and a cash-grabbing device used by big companies. They release games with deliberately cut content to release it as paid add-ons, even on day one. It's like you buy the game, but you need to pay more and more to actually play it. The pinnacle of this is selling single missions or maps for a price of small game.

It's beyond me why do people actually support these practices. This is how these companies make money - they just make crappy games, because they know people will pay for them. And they will even pay again and again for useless stuff or something that should be in game as normal content, not an "add-on".

So far, most of indie industry is free of this bs. Just look at Pixel Ferrets - you can see that they love what they do, and they make this game, because that's what they really want to do. It's ok to make money, but you should just make what you love and be nice to people, and they will pay you themselves. I really wish Teddy and co. won't fall into the greedy mode and start selling single Arcade floors or new OP weapons for noobs or such. It would be maybe ok to make a paid DLC with, say, 5 or 6 new areas and respective Arcade floors, adding 20+ hours to gameplay. It's something Witcher 3 did, and it's like buying another game. But you can live without doing that, by just by supporting your own game and increasing player base over time, and definitely you don't need cut content just monetize it.

(hope you get the idea >_>)

EDIT:
I mean, games can be developed only to make money, or developed from passion. Your "developers need to make money to live" supporting paid DLCs is and example of the former approach, which I really, REALLY don't like, especially being developer myself and seeing how this gets more popular nowadays. Games are getting commercialized, just like TV, but it goes too far and devs who don't fall into all this are getting more valuable. Just keep SoG out of this, pls

 

[res7less]

Yes, they just keep giving free updates. And you know what? They are successful. Recently they reached 20 million copies sold. They are supporting their game for years, but they still earn money from new players that come (8 million copies in last 2 years). That's how make games - people buy it, because it's good and they see that developers actually care.

On the other hand, we have companies like EA, Ubisoft or Activision. They spend thousands to develop a game and rely only on the sales in first few weeks/months. They make game SOLELY to make money, playing on people's naivety and releasing rushed and bugged junk just to milk the franchises they established. Prominent example is what μbi did to Heroes of Might and Magic, releasing 7th installment flooded with bugs, which then they tried to fix. Not full 2 years after release, they dropped support for the game, leaving all the bugs and advising players to "contact customer support" with their problems.
Anyways, I was going to write about DLCs, which are another cancer of the industry and a cash-grabbing device used by big companies. They release games with deliberately cut content to release it as paid add-ons, even on day one. It's like you buy the game, but you need to pay more and more to actually play it. The pinnacle of this is selling single missions or maps for a price of small game.

It's beyond me why do people actually support these practices. This is how these companies make money - they just make crappy games, because they know people will pay for them. And they will even pay again and again for useless stuff or something that should be in game as normal content, not an "add-on".

So far, most of indie industry is free of this bs. Just look at Pixel Ferrets - you can see that they love what they do, and they make this game, because that's what they really want to do. It's ok to make money, but you should just make what you love and be nice to people, and they will pay you themselves. I really wish Teddy and co. won't fall into the greedy mode and start selling single Arcade floors or new OP weapons for noobs or such. It would be maybe ok to make a paid DLC with, say, 5 or 6 new areas and respective Arcade floors, adding 20+ hours to gameplay. It's something Witcher 3 did, and it's like buying another game. But you can live without doing that, by just by supporting your own game and increasing player base over time, and definitely you don't need cut content just monetize it.

Haha, okay, it looks like we're just talking past each other since I absolutely agree with every single point you made. Especially Ubisoft has been pissing me off for years, because of what they did to the HoMM franchise, which is why I don't support them at all, which is why I didn't even buy the 7th installment despite having loved HoMM since childhood. I have neither been talking about releasing half of a game where you have to pay to play the full game, nor about milking faithful customers. I was talking about designing the Arcade Mode in a modular way, that would allow future new content to be released as paid DLC (perhaps for Arcade Mode, perhaps for Story Mode). Not weapons, not pay-to-win DLC, nothing of the sort.

Of course it's a good thing if a game is so good that it continues to attract new players for a long time, but sooner or later it will run out of new players, so something needs to be done with the players, who already play. And it's in the interest of any company, no matter if big or small to enure long-term income to be able to continue producing the games we love, especially since "you can see that they love what they do". All I want is for them to be able to continue doing what they do after SoG has been released.

 

[Teddy]

Translator Wars!! (Except you ruined it with civil discussion )

Let me just put an end to both your worries by stating that all the 16 DLCs we have planned will keep the same high quality-to-price ratio as our #1 cash cow: the Valkyrie Hat

 

[Own]

From what I've gathered, Steam's recommendation systems are very influenced by player activity (playtime basically),

Which is why Binding of Isaac Afterbirth+ has that achievement to play a daily run for 30 days consecutively, trying to game the system. Not a lot of people are happy about that, given how easy it is to have something going on in your life that prevents you from playing every day for a month. But many daily players of the game does increase it's listing on Steam, apparently.

I do hope that if/when Grindea gets daily runs, they'll be a bit more well received by merit of not having that chore attached to them. Daily runs could be handled pretty well if they were just like:

- You can only run it once a day. (Or repeating it gives no special rewards / makes you ineligible for a daily leaderboard, if there is one)
- Everyone gets the same dungeon seed. Same chests, same shops, same drops, same everything below.
- You get a mixture of 0-3 random curses/buffs
- You get 0-3 random perks.
- The game generates a Primary, Secondary and Tertiary skill and automatically applies skillpoints to them. It allocates talent points at random.
- End-of-run gold gain is multiplied by X, as a once-per-day benefit.
- End-of-run essence is also multiplied by X.

I know that would ensure I'd return to play it every single day, for the gold/essence boost.

Long Tail Powered by Steam™

Now there's a gigantic sign that someone reads Lars's articles.

 

[Elswor]

Translator Wars!! (Except you ruined it with civil discussion )

Let me just put an end to both your worries by stating that all the 16 DLCs we have planned will keep the same high quality-to-price ratio as our #1 cash cow: the Valkyrie Hat

If this is your way of saying "We're going to release more hats", then I hope you know I'm already throwing money at the screen yelling this:

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/5/5d/Heavy_award07.wav?t=20110320042337

 

[Teddy]

If this is your way of saying "We're going to release more hats"

Sadly for you, and fortunately for KoBeWi, we won't be releasing anything else like that - the Valkyrie Hat is basically just a "now you can pretend you bought the game for $20 if you want (oh and you get a hat)!"

The good news is that we'll of course keep filling the game up with hats without additional charge!