Lore speculations / discussion (spoiler alert!)

[Own]

Zhamla's sword has the blue here when he kills the mother worm, and it teleports away like it does in the dragon cave.

So... wait. I'm confused. Does he have two magic swords? Or did it get a makeover, and then go back to blue?

In the end, he was the one who pulled the blade, so...

If the 'Bag Is Evil' theory is correct, Bag could have been doing to Dad what Gaantlet did to Winter and Crown to Zhamla. Bag doesn't even necessarily have to be evil, either, artifacts could just naturally imprint or influence their will upon those who equip them. You equip Shiidu and Shiidu refuses to let you even raise it.

Edit The one most damning thing Bag has said in the 'Bag Is Evil' pile, assuming he hasn't lost his memory, is his very first conversation with you at the start of the game. A phrase that was used in reference to Zhamla during Tai Ming.

"Just do what I say and I'll make you the King of Collecting!"

Given what we've seen being the 'King of Collecting' entails, Bag is either an amnesiac, evil or has an extremely twisted sense of humor.

 

[res7less]

Given what we've seen being the 'King of Collecting' entails, Bag is either an amnesiac, evil or has an extremely twisted sense of humor.

I think we can safely agree that the latter is true in any of those cases

 

[The G-Meister]

Might as well pop this in here. Bag tells you twice not to let any of the events of the past haunt you, either because he actually cares about your sanity, or because he doesn't want you to think too hard about it because of his evil intentions (like we're doing here). Also, the second time he brings up the topic, he appears to sneeze. This could be because, as an artifact, he is physically allergic to being nice to people, like he says, and potentially also allergic to not doing the grim things all the other artifacts appear to do.

One thing you might want to consider though are the nature of all the other artifacts - they all appear to be willingly worn. Gaan'telt, Braazlet (oddly similar), Amalet and the crown are all pretty self explanatory. The sword is a little different. The way I see it, while it doesn't appear to have a sheath it is part of, Zhamla always throws it of his own free will. Bag is different in that respect, as he will depart from you of his own free will (albeit usually temporarily).

Another thing I'd at least like to bring up - I have no idea how the devs have considered time travel. Seen as it's physically impossible (so far as we know) in real life, we have nothing to compare it to. However, that doesn't mean we can't consider the effects of it, and one of them is that (if Bag is the same object as Pao Zhi) that two of the same object are present at the same time.

This is certainly interesting to read (much like Game Theory was to watch until I got bored of Mat Pat's repetitive humour) so keep going, but I'll throw in any extra evidence where relevant so you don't back yourself too much into this theory. Personally I'm not going to pick sides, but I wouldn't want you guys to get too hyped up about it for it then not to be the correct resolution

 

[Own]

Also, the second time he brings up the topic, he appears to sneeze.

Looked/sounded like a sigh of exasperation to me.

Also, Vilya confirmed that Zhamla's sword is retconned to be always green. It should be green in all cutscenes now.

Which is a shame, becuase that sword with the blue cloth hanging off it looked so sweet. Maybe that one can be a sword we can collect.

 

[res7less]

Another thing I'd at least like to bring up - I have no idea how the devs have considered time travel. Seen as it's physically impossible (so far as we know) in real life, we have nothing to compare it to. However, that doesn't mean we can't consider the effects of it, and one of them is that (if Bag is the same object as Pao Zhi) that two of the same object are present at the same time.

I don't know, but here, as well as in other time-traveling-stories, I view visitors from another time more like an instance of themselves. The later instance always inherits from the earlier, but they can coexist in the same time. However, there could be paradoxes, such as for example if old Bag helps young Bag to escape while Zhamla holds player, since old Bag only exists because young Bag was able to escape, but without old Bag it wouldn't be possible, etc, you get the meaning. It's an interesting prospect, though. Back to the Future (all three parts) is actually one of my favourite movies.

 

[KoBeWi]

Oh, and on another topic...

The flashback with Zhamla's dreams hints towards it as well since he is ascending a mountain, fights monsters, which goes on and on until he dies and wakes up - the same thing happens when you die in Arcade Mode: you "wake up" in Arcadia again.

I wonder how dying in Story Mode can be explained? If you had to continue from last save, that wouldn't be a problem - you could just pretend it didn't happen. But you don't lose any progress, and if you die during boss fights, the Bag will give you tips. Seeing how even Arcade Mode can be incorporated into lore, what about this?

 

[da_ninja_monkey]

I wonder how dying in Story Mode can be explained? If you had to continue from last save, that wouldn't be a problem - you could just pretend it didn't happen. But you don't lose any progress, and if you die during boss fights, the Bag will give you tips. Seeing how even Arcade Mode can be incorporated into lore, what about this?

If we have a time traveling bag with us at all times who also likes to give us advice on how to beat enemies/bosses when we die is it not possible that we are in fact some part of the future that has to repeat the past for a future in an endless loop (like in many time travel movies/stories) but just forget that we time travel? each death being a new attempt to succeed?

It is also possible that your mother is grindea, who is shown to have the ability to manipulate time, and just puts you back in your body when you die? (i know that is a stretch but maybe?) so you can save the world or something without dying?

 

[Own]

A lot of games don't really factor continuing from death into the story, it's there for player convenience. Like the fact that you can run from every boss in Chrono Cross isn't really a story thing, the game never really acknowledges it.

If they were going the "Your character is actually fighting the battle, losing, going back in time / being put back in their body", then you'd think the dialogue or actions in cutscenes prior to the battle would change.

Also, I found out that if you step on Shiidu prior to picking them up, Bag will call them Steelface. So that's... possibly a mark in the 'Bag remembers everything' column. Or it's just how Bag names things.

Bag also says "Wait, is that..." when he first sees the crown, too, only to dismiss it with a 'nevermind, just some crown', or something like that. He definitely knows more than he likes to share.

 

[The G-Meister]

Bag also says "Wait, is that..." when he first sees the crown, too, only to dismiss it with a 'nevermind, just some crown', or something like that. He definitely knows more than he likes to share.

Couldn't that just mean he knows that the artefact you're looking for is a crown? That doesn't have to mean he remembers it personally

 

[Own]

Neither he or dad mentions that it's a crown you're looking for, do they?

 

[The G-Meister]

Just because someone doesn't say what they're looking for doesn't mean they don't know Admittedly it is looking like a slim possibility, but it's a possibility none the less.

I was originally under the impression that Pao Zhi must've slipped out during the fight, which put me off the theory a little, but there's nothing saying he slipped out somewhere while Zhamla was on his killing spree, or even at any other point after he was assigned.

In fact, looking at the artefacts before they were assigned, they're pretty friendly and kind, and have good aspirations. What's saying bag slipped out before Zhamla completed his card album and got hellbent on grinding everything, thereby keeping his cool and his good aspirations? An artefact might learn about itself and how it should perceive the world from it's owner as it grows up and unlocks it's full potential, then keeps those morals when they're fully grown (and apply them to the next person to equip them).

One other thing you might wanna think about - if we're fairly certain the sword in the cave of Slan'kerz is Zhamla's... why were Dad and Charlotte searching for it? At that point Charlotte was alive and healthy and therefore they'd have no need or need to resurrect her. That doesn't mean they weren't trying to revive someone else of course.

Finally, if we're also certain that the five artefacts taken from Zhamla at the time of his sealing are the ones we're collecting, I'd probably put bets on Slan'kers being the final boss. That'd be interesting of course, for we haven't fought a boss completely from the side yet.

 

[Own]

One other thing you might wanna think about - if we're fairly certain the sword in the cave of Slan'kerz is Zhamla's... why were Dad and Charlotte searching for it? At that point Charlotte was alive and healthy and therefore they'd have no need or need to resurrect her. That doesn't mean they weren't trying to revive someone else of course.

They're not there for the sword. They're just there gathering treasure. It's Bag who points out the sword even exists and says it's an important piece, urging Dad to get it. Charlotte just calls it 'some old sword', while Dad says he's ready to leave before Bag directs him to it.

Though the game doesn't outright say it, I get the impression Bag lead them there. The same way he's lead you to all the other artifacts (his five cohorts from 1000 years ago) with his 'research', as he describes it. If so, that means he was trying to get Dad and Charlotte to gather all the artifacts (possibly to unseal Zhamla?) and failed spectacularly, getting one of them crippled and killing the other. Trying again with the next generation after that, lying to both parent and child, is supershady.

I wonder how much of a part Bag had in Zhamla's collect-a-holic behavior, because what would a treasure sack want more than anything? To be filled with all the rarest treasures of the world. Cards, artifacts, everything. And Bag doesn't strike me as a character who would ever be satisfied with any amount of loot.

I also wonder if maybe the Crown has the power to warp not only the one who wears it, but all artifacts on them as well. It would explain their maliciousness. And a Crown implies a leader, King of other artifacts?

We'll have to see what Braazlet's personality is like in temple 4.

 

[The G-Meister]

I also wonder if maybe the Crown has the power to warp not only the one who wears it

Look at the player. Teleport plates do that, but then they're heavy things that have to be placed. I feel the teleporting comes more from the sword. As for the leader of all artefacts... how can a leader lead if it is silent? Unless it's just unwilling to share it's horrific past. And we're still unsure at what point this crown became an artefact... or is at an artefact at all? I think there will be a few more hints dropped about it when bag and Dad have the conversation as the crown gets put on the podium.

And Bag doesn't strike me as a character who would ever be satisfied with any amount of loot.

I mean, if your bag is infinitely deep (or items take up no space), no matter what finite quantity of items you put in, they will never actually fill him up by any amount, thereby meaning he can't ever be satisfied with any of it? Unless that satisfaction comes from putting it inside of him, much like food tastes nice when we put it in our mouths... but if it doesn't fill us up we become hungry.

Furthermore, he's not impressed with Quinton when he's asked to haul that teleport plate over to the Ancient Temple. Can't remember the exact words, but they weren't nice

 

[Own]

Look at the player. Teleport plates do that, but then they're heavy things that have to be placed.

By warp I meant personality-wise. Distorted. Not literal teleportation. Hence the rest of the line, "but all artifacts on them as well. It would explain their maliciousness." Teleportation doesn't make you malicious.

If Gaantlet can warp Winter's personality, there's no reason a Crown (ruler) couldn't warp lesser artifacts. That's one out for Bag not being evil, but being warped/manipulated from his time with Crown-controlled Zhamla, operating under the goal of 'regather all artifacts.'

I do wonder how the artifacts are made, on another note. So far we only see them as young artifacts in Tai Ming, while Tessen says she made the crown. In one cutscene we see it knocked off of Zhamla's head, left on the ground behind Sizou while Zhamla walks off. Maybe Sizou did something to it that made it into an artifact, imprinted a collect-everything mindset on whoever wears it. It would be poetic justice for him to have died as a result of it.

This update adds so much speculation fuel.

 

[da_ninja_monkey]

Also, I found out that if you step on Shiidu prior to picking them up, Bag will call them Steelface. So that's... possibly a mark in the 'Bag remembers everything' column. Or it's just how Bag names things.

You do see the little bag call Shiidu Steelface when you go back in time, he may have picked it up from there.

 

[KoBeWi]

You do see the little bag call Shiidu Steelface when you go back in time, he may have picked it up from there.

That conversation is optional tho.

I'd probably put bets on Slan'kers being the final boss.

I wouldn't. When we defeat Slan'kers, it means we will get the final artifact, so this is when the final plot twist happens and final boss is revealed. It might be Zhamla who gets revived, but if my speculation about elite human is true, after Zhamla we will fight one more boss.

 

[The G-Meister]

Well, at least I'll put bets on fighting Slan'kerz at some point

 

[res7less]

Also, I found out that if you step on Shiidu prior to picking them up, Bag will call them Steelface. So that's... possibly a mark in the 'Bag remembers everything' column. Or it's just how Bag names things.

I stumbled upon this phrase when translating, but refrained from mentioning it here in order not to spoil it. But now that it was found in the game and the cat's out of the , I can comment on it as well. It is indeed a strong connection to what happened in Tai Ming 1. But I don't know, I still refuse to believe that Pao Zhi and Bag are the same. All the artifacts we meet seem just to be innocent and kind-hearted and being forced to take part in what Zhamla did is hardly something they would like him for. However, Bag seems to admire Zhamla despite knowing what he did, even defending him at one point, so there has to be something else to it. The true Zhamla, however, the one we get to know, is only in Tai Ming 1 where he was a child. But it's not until Tai Ming 2 that Pao Zhi gets assigned to Zhamla - and there he already started getting cocky and angry and obsessed.

We'll have to see what Braazlet's personality is like in temple 4.

That's also something I'm looking forward to as it might explain many things. It's like the question with which was the first, the egg or the . Do artifacts influence their wielder, or the other way round? It would make more sense that artifacts do as they, or items in general, influence your stats, don't they? So, in that case it could be that different artifacts influence different good or bad traits, like greed, lust for power, benevolence etc. Braazlet seems to be the only artifact that isn't used to destroy, as she is the one that heals Zhamla for his 999999 during the fight (at least I assume so). So if she is the only one, that influences Zhamla in a positive way, it's one good artifact vs. four evil ones.

One other thing you might wanna think about - if we're fairly certain the sword in the cave of Slan'kerz is Zhamla's... why were Dad and Charlotte searching for it? At that point Charlotte was alive and healthy and therefore they'd have no need or need to resurrect her. That doesn't mean they weren't trying to revive someone else of course.

Perhaps they weren't even trying to revive anyone at this point. If Bag is the schemer he appears to be after all the clues (although my mind is screaming nooooooo, not Bag, noooooo, Bag's awesome), he might have given them a different reason to search for it. I mean, Charlotte's sword did a hell of a lot of damage, compared to Zhamla's during his fight (which in my opinion is wrong as Zhamla should be stronger, but perhaps I'm missing something), so why would she need one?

 

[The G-Meister]

Do artifacts influence their wielder, or the other way round?

What says it can't be both? I won't reiterate my paragraph from above, but one can learn from the other, and it could've been Zhamla that turned that artefacts on world domination, not what people might perceive as the other way around.

 

[KoBeWi]

Spoiler: ULTRA MEGA HOT SPOILER FROM TRANSLATION TOOL

Ah, you're back, and not a moment too soon. Did you find the artifact? ...you saw this Crown being worn by some Collector that lived a thousand years ago? You're not making any sense, child. Bag, please help me out here.

...it will take some time to explain, and even then I'm not sure if it will make any more sense.

In that case the explanations will have to wait. We have a very serious situation on our hands.

The artifact Ivy learned about was not this crown, but the final one. A while after you left, she sent one of the strongest Collectors to find it. I'm afraid her choice couldn't have been worse... ...she sent Luke.

Haha! What's so bad about that? A dimwit like him will probably just get possessed and- ...ah.

Indeed. A strong minded Collector might've resisted its lure, and a weak Collector would not pose a threat. ...but imagine the catastrophe that could await us if the artifact gained control over Luke of all people! This is no longer just about bringing back Charlotte - it's about protecting the world! The final artifact is aboard a derelict ship to the west of Keypoint Harbor. To get there, you'll need to pass through the Jomave Desert, which lies to the south of Evergrind City. Hurry along now, [0]! The fate of the world might rely on your swiftness!

Seems like Dad doesn't know that there's one more artifact, so I wonder how will we end up getting it.

Also, battle with possessed Luke.