Arcade Rework - Full Roguelite edition

[IHeartPie]

Hi! Some of you probably at the very least heard parts of this, but overall, I'd like to see some major changes to turn the arcade mode into a full roguelite mode.

The aims for these changes are:

• Increase run-by-run variety
• Decrease run time
• Increase build variety
• Decrease difficulty of entry for players
• Increase "addictiveness"

I will be explaining each of these factors later. And also, for those worried that this is going to change what you love (score-chasing and build-runs), check the modes section to see alternate play modes.

First, let's talk about what doesn't work (in my opinion) right now.

• Runs are largely the same - you know largely which bosses will show up where, you know roughly how powerful you are at any point in the game, you know what build you're going in with, you know what build you'll end up with. There isn't enough changes on a run-by-run basis to really feel like the next run will be different. One may argue that this is good for challenging yourself and practicing, but I'd argue back that randomization isn't necessary for that. You can be given all the items you need instead of getting random items for example (if you want to practice without them, don't equip them). I think randomization was added to give variety between runs, and currently, the variety isn't high enough in my opinion.
• Runs are too long. It was fine when the end floor was the fortress, it got a bit long with seasonne temple, now it's too long with tai ming (and when the next section is added, it'll be way wayyy too long). We need to shorten runs to increase variety between runs and prevent constantly running into the same bosses (hello pumpking and halloweed for the billionth time).
• Build variety needs increase. While some may argue that some skills need nerfs and buffs, I think rather than spending forever nerfing the minutia of every skill to be fully balanced (which is a never ending process - just look at league of legends), we should focus on encouraging the other builds. While score decreases on "OP" skills is a good stop gap for pro-score chasing play, the vanilla users will just abuse it and find the game boring.
• New players find the game too hard. The steam forums have a lot of posts from people talking about how the game is hard and they don't feel like they are progressing. Decreasing floor length and increasing randomization will make them feel like they are making more progress while trying something new.
• The addictiveness gameplay of roguelites could be improved. In roguelites, you want to boot up another game because you want to see what you get this time. How will your run change? What interesting things are you going to see? Currently, the answer to that is... different challenge rooms... and that's pretty much it. You get similar items, similar bosses, similar enemy rooms, the same skill build, etc. Unless I force myself to do a different build, there really isn't much variety run-by-run.

Alright those are a lot of points, let's get into how to fix it.

1. Do away with the current skill system. It works for story, not so much for a roguelite. In binding of Isaac for example, you start a run the same as everyone else, but you never end a run the same. Do you fire exploding mortars x 4? Do you shoot homing lasers? Does your damage revolve around your companions instead? Who knows! That's part of the fun of roguelites - your skill carries over so you know how to generally deal with enemies and bosses, but the way you deal damage changes. We have the unique skills already, we just don't have the randomization. So how do we fix it?
2. Change it to a charge-level pick up for skills. You go into a chest room in pillar mountains, in it you find... Summon plants. Now you can use bronze charge. You actively groan, but you press on, largely relying on your trusty sword to carry you to the next item room. Luckily, you find a shrine room in the next floor that gives you another summon plant skill. This bumps it up to silver charge! Which is fantastic, especially this early on! See how a run can start off blank, but each pick up can change the mood of a run? That's part of the excitement of a roguelite, and it's something pre-set builds cannot provide. It creates a sense of "what am I going to get next run? Let's find out!". It also makes new players who die feel like "Oh, I would've done better if I got silver charge of shadow clone instead. Oh well."
3. Reduce the floors for each section to 1. We don't particularly need 2 floors per section anymore. The runs are long enough as it is. The floors themselves are a bit short, however, so we should also increase the floor sizes by ~50%. That way, there's more decision making to be made about "here's the boss, but do I explore more and risk taking damage or should I rush the boss now and keep going?". Decisions like that are missing in the current version.
4. Remove the leaderboard. I know, blasphemous right? But in it's current state, the leaderboard isn't really serving it's full purpose of comparing equal runs. After all, one person can have a better run than another but because RNG gave them a few less mobs, they get less score. The whole idea of "this skill is OP so we reduce the score you get for it" also feels real bad, same with "you suck? Use these bonuses for a score decrease". I feel like scores should be balanced based on equal runs which brings us to...
5. Two new modes: Seeded dailies and Pre-set challenges. Seeded dailies are something most other roguelites have. It's a way to bring players back on a day by day basis and a way to let the skilled players show off. How it works is that you get 1 try at it, that's it. You get as far as you can on the same run that everyone else gets. If you're getting a dodging strike build with provoke, and you hate it, just know that everyone else got that too and if you play well, you'd still be ranked at the top. Preset challenges are things like "Bow Only - You get infinite arrows but no skills or weapons", "Mega-swing, you get a huge but slow two-handed weapon" or "Curses - All curses are active, good luck". You will get a random run every time, but you are set with whatever the challenge dictates. One mode could also be a "I want to pick my build mode" for those who want that. Overall, this should satisfy a lot of people looking to keep the competitiveness or the build-crafting aspect of the game mode.
6. Remove muffins and candies and make them a part of the randomization. Because most gamers are stubborn and probably won't pick up muffins while candies are only for those whom are score chasing. Both don't really cater to the general "I just want to play the game" model of roguelites. They should be nice and simple where you just hop in and play and get a good experience rather than spending time deciding what muffins or candies to take. If each floor has a 33% chance for some kind of muffin blessing, 33% change of nothing and 33% chance of a candy curse, that makes runs more interesting and varied.

Optional

• Add in secret rooms. Part of the issue with the current room structure is that there isn't anything to "discover". You know what room you're going into, you know that when you've explored a floor, that's it. Secret rooms that are discovered using unique methods would make the exploration (especially for those who're more experienced) more satisfying. Getting a boar to rush a stone? Shooting an arrow at a statue? We already have a lot of these mechanics in story, it would be cool if they are added to arcade as well. Maybe even some arcade specific ones like finding a golden ghost or hit moving targets (archery challenge).
• Change the card system. This probably warrants a post on it's own but I have problems with the current card system not making *enough* of an impact. I'm specialized into a melee build and get a lantern jack card? Whoop dee doo, matk, great. I'd prefer it if it actually have things to completely change the way you play. For example, boar card makes it so as you move in one direction, you increase in speed. Or bloomo card lets you "root yourself" by standing still and it increases your attack damage. Another change to the system is that you'll be limited to choosing X amount of cards based on how many cards you have in total (just to keep with the motif that you want as many cards as possible even if the card doesn't help with your build). This makes it so that it's more exciting to pick up any card, regardless of whether it's something you use.
• Make talents a pick up as well. Picking up a +physical attack early will definitely change your mentality on what you go upcoming. Same with if you get some arrow talent upgrades. Lets the devs add in new talents that are arcade specific as well.
• Do away with... items? Not entirely sure about this, but if talents can essentially replace the stat increase of items and cards can do away with the special effects of items... items are kind of pointless, haha. We can still keep them in of course as additional stat increases (kind of like trinkets in Binding of Isaac - swappable items that gives bonuses).
• Increase shop, loot, challenge room rewards, shrine variety. Less of an optional thing, but essentially with cards, talents, skills and items, the reward variety for these can become a lot more varied, which in turns changes up your runs by a lot.

So after this, you probably have a lot of counter arguments, let me see if I can respond to a couple before it gets posted:

• This is going to take too long! Probably the most reasonable complaint and I completely agree. This is how we take Grindea arcade mode from an okay mode to an AMAZING game in my opinion. It's absolutely going to take time, but I think if any dev is willing to take time to make an amazing product, it's the Pixel Ferrets (no pressure).
• Some bosses like gund4m are going to be OP while phaseman is easy. If I get gund4m, I'm so unlucky! Yep. That's the point. Even Isaac have harder and easier bosses (Haunt and pin are both 1st level bosses but Haunt is infinitely harder than pin.) If you get a hard boss, just tough through it, you Hercules! Outside of that, easier bosses can be buffed, hard bosses can be nerfed. Keep in mind that you will some times luck out and get great items as well, which could make hard bosses a breeze.
• This is going to be a balancing nightmare! Well, yes and no. These items don't have to be 100% balanced. The bean in Isaac for example, is actually completely useless. But it's in the game. If I see it, I groan but I move on. Toughing it out to see what else I can get this run. So if I see dodging strike? I'll just keep moving, hoping the next item isn't dodging strike silver charge. You don't have to perfectly make each skill viable - just viable enough that it's not completely useless. The balance comes from bosses not being too much of a cakewalk/nightmare.
• Beating the game is going to be so easy with short floors. People will just beat it and leave! I've beaten Isaac. I haven't left. Why? Because I want to see what the next run holds. (Also, more items unlock when you beat it as different characters, but that's a whole other thing)

Phew, okay, I think that's all for now. Please be gentle when you rip it apart.

 

[Own]

"Runs are largely the same"

Which is great for me, because there are many types of roguelikes. Isaac is the "potentially RNG into an amazing run" roguelike. SoG is the "master the mechanics, master the game" roguelike.

"Runs are too long"

I like the length. A 90 minute run to get through arcade in it's entirety seems acceptable to me, it's not meant to be something meant to be enjoyed in 5-10 minute bursts... unless you're trying to farm up some gold for town.

"Build variety needs increase"

Agreed. I'd like to see this handled on a daily seed, where skill and talent gains are auto-applied on leveling. Beyond that, whatever skill gives the most score gain is the one high score chasers will use ... and we'll be back at the problem of there being 1-2 builds for high score chasers and everyone else is wondering why their builds have to get a score hit to appease 0.01% of the players.

"Do away with the current skill system. ... In binding of Isaac for example,"

I really, really like having roguelikes that work differently and would hate to have everything emulating Isaac, when SoG could never get that amount of variety. Tears can have hundreds of combinations. There's roughly 20-30 skills in SoG and they work the same every time. Great for a challenge/curse/daily seed, though.

"Reduce the floors for each section to 1. ... we should also increase the floor sizes by ~50%."

Extremely dislike this. Fighting more of the same groups of enemies over and over without a boss risks being boring. SoG does not have the thousands of room layouts, enemy layouts, enemy elite bonuses or other mechanics Isaac does to warrant fighting the same groups of enemies over and over.

"Remove the leaderboard"

Dislike this. Some people like seeing how high up they are, even if they're not chasing #1. I don't mind them doing so.

"Remove muffins and candies and make them a part of the randomization."

Dislike this. Allowing people to customize their runs, like in Bastion, goes a long way in increasing their enjoyment. Only problem is there's a few objectively 'best' curses and why would anyone pick any but those.

"Add in secret rooms"

Would increase runtime as people carefully check every room for secret entrances.

Basically I disagree with almost everything suggested here because I hate and fear change, too deeply rooted in my olden ways. It feels like you want an entirely different game mode than the one I want. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[IHeartPie]

Which is great for me, because there are many types of roguelikes. Isaac is the "potentially RNG into an amazing run" roguelike. SoG is the "master the mechanics, master the game" roguelike.

• That's fair, but without much randomization, it's less roguelite and more arcade (which I understand is the name of the mode, but that's also why I'm pitching a change =P). Arcade games like side-scrolling beat-em ups, pacman, donkey kong, etc. are meant for multiple playthroughs of the same game. Even an arcade game of Xmen has different characters so you can have different "builds". But at the end of it, Xmen doesn't have the same hook as something like BoI does in the modern day because it's the same game every run. It's not like there's no mechanics to master in BoI as well.

I like the length. A 90 minute run to get through arcade in it's entirety seems acceptable to me, it's not meant to be something meant to be enjoyed in 5-10 minute bursts... unless you're trying to farm up some gold for town.

• Not 5-10 min bursts, but Isaac runs are around 30-60 minutes for the whole game (Looking at northernlion videos). We're currently at 90 mins and we're still missing 6 floors minimum.

Agreed. I'd like to see this handled on a daily seed, where skill and talent gains are auto-applied on leveling. Beyond that, whatever skill gives the most score gain is the one high score chasers will use ... and we'll be back at the problem of there being 1-2 builds for high score chasers and everyone else is wondering why their builds have to get a score hit to appease 0.01% of the players.

• That's why I pitched the randomized skills and the seeded runs - prevents high score chase and prevent score hits on cheesy skills. Everyone gets the same skills so no complaints.

I really, really like having roguelikes that work differently and would hate to have everything emulating Isaac, when SoG could never get that amount of variety. Tears can have hundreds of combinations. There's roughly 20-30 skills in SoG and they work the same every time. Great for a challenge/curse/daily seed, though.

• I agree, but the thing is SoG still does things differently enough. First of all, it's going to be the only properly functioning melee roguelite that I can think of off the top of my head. Secondly, gungeon found it's own audience and feels different despite a similar style to isaac, I think this game would too. In terms of skills, that's why I was pitching for cards to make for a nice shake up as well (and talents to a lesser extent).

Extremely dislike this. Fighting more of the same groups of enemies over and over without a boss risks being boring. SoG does not have the thousands of room layouts, enemy layouts, enemy elite bonuses or other mechanics Isaac does to warrant fighting the same groups of enemies over and over.

• We already have differences in spawns between the 2 floors of the same type. Ghosts spawn in floor 6 but not 5 for example. I think if we take that into account, sprinkle in secret rooms, take largely the "bonus rooms" (challenge, shrine, chest, shop) from the 2nd floor and toss it into the first, we can have a good variety. We can even add in a "mini boss" room for those looking to challenge more bosses.

Dislike this. Allowing people to customize their runs, like in Bastion, goes a long way in increasing their enjoyment. Only problem is there's a few objectively 'best' curses and why would anyone pick any but those.

• Bastion is a single player game, though. It's meant for 1 run and those are to shake things up for a 2nd run, that's it. Roguelites should feel different in between runs and I think curses and blessings can add a lot to that different feel.

Would increase runtime as people carefully check every room for secret entrances.

• Increase runtime for those whom are not accustomed to finding them, yeah. But a skilled eye can identify them quickly enough. Plus, a couple minutes extra after cutting down 30-40 mins from floor shortening is worth it =P.

Basically I disagree with everything suggested here because I hate and fear change, too deeply rooted in my olden ways. It feels like you want an entirely different game mode than the one I want. That's all I have to say about that.

• That's fair. I think doing this would appeal a lot more to newcomers though. Especially people who've played and enjoyed other roguelites (not even just isaac -> gungeon, wizard of legend, vagante, rogue legacy, slay the spire, spelunky, etc etc.). They all follow a similar design of "you start off relatively the same and your build adapts and changes base on what you get and what you face." The closest one is wizard of legend where you choose a couple skills to go in with, but even then, you pick up loads of spells/items that change up how you play as well. Each roguelite feels very different from each other to me.

 

[KoBeWi]

"Runs are too long"

I like the length. A 90 minute run to get through arcade in it's entirety seems acceptable to me, it's not meant to be something meant to be enjoyed in 5-10 minute bursts...

That's only assuming you do the whole run, not die in two 40-minute long attempts.

I disagree about 1 floor per area thing. I'd rather see something like this to make run length more bearable: http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/arcade-mode-needs-shortcuts.9014/
If someone wants to make full run, go ahead and spend 90 minutes. If someone just wants to see play higher floors, then they could use shortcuts.

Remove the leaderboard. [...] one person can have a better run than another but because RNG gave them a few less mobs, they get less score.

That's why they take multiple runs until they get maximum possible score. If someone already competes for #1 place, that person won't mind multiple perfect runs.

Remove muffins and candies and make them a part of the randomization.

I'm also against this. If anything, random treats/curses during the run could add up on top to the chosen 3.

Add in secret rooms. [...] Secret rooms that are discovered using unique methods would make the exploration (especially for those who're more experienced) more satisfying. Getting a boar to rush a stone? Shooting an arrow at a statue?

This would be REALLY cool, but regarding what Own said, we need to avoid people poking every wall. Instead, the secret rooms would be just not mapped (until you enter them at least) and their entrance would be fixed. I mean, instead of making player randomly attack a stone and have 50% chance to find a room, make it so that a particular type of stone ALWAYS hides a secret room etc. This way you only need to try everything for the first time and then you will know if there's something hidden there. This could also introduce more interaction with environment, like making enemy do a certain thing (the boar example) or solving hidden puzzle or thorns on room border which block secret exit etc.

Looking at all the ideas, they make Arcade mode pretty much a separate game. It's like the mode should be completely removed and available as DLC XD
I wouldn't mind more variety, but I'm also against deviating too much from the standard game and making it a BoI clone. This should still be an RPG, so stuff like removing items or levels is a no-no.

 

[Teddy]

I think @IHeartPie 's suggestions are good. Binding of Isaac is a super popular game and to emulate its qualities might make people like Arcade Mode more. I know he says he's not specifically trying to emulate BoI but...

In that sense, there's a good to fair chance that the suggestions would improve Arcade Mode, supposing "improve" means "make more popular for the average player of video games".

However, it's not really an "improvement" in the iterative sense. It's more of a replacement. The previous rework we did was basically just a close-to-objective improvement of the mode, while this would change the nature of it entirely. This means people who actually do like the mode gets something taken away from them. This is true even if they like the new mode as much or more. I also think there's some kind of... metaphysical value of doing things differently to the most popular route.

It would be interesting to experiment with something like this when the game is done, and if it's fun separate Arcade Mode into Order and Chaos or something, with Chaos being this mode. And just go full bananas with it, removing all leveling and equipment outright and just have people scale with the upgrades they're given, like BoI (except without downgrades - my only big gripe with Isaac. Speed down? Sober up, Edmund)

I would probably run such experiments on my free time. Once I spent an evening to make a "raid boss" for Fred and his pals based off Giga Slime where his DEF scaled with number of slimes. It forced them to divide into two groups, one who hunted slimes and the other would spend their EP on the boss, and when the boss-group was out of EP, they went hunting slimes and the others attacked the boss. (Not sharing this because of the brilliant design but rather as an example of in what context I might prototype something like a chaos arcade mode $90 DLC)

I also agree with Own that BoI's combat is basically tailored with a single goal in mind: create mutability with the upgrades. This difference means that Grindea won't ever be able to compete in that regard without super duper significant work, that way eclipses the work required to make Binding of Isaac.

But who knows, maybe with some creative thinking I can find avenues for bonkers combinations still.

About the run length, we've talked about maybe reducing # of floors to 1 per area, and having two bosses on the same floor instead. But we'll see exactly how we solve it!

I'm not personally against Kobewi's shortcut suggestion either.

We'll need to have more focused consideration time for both of these changes.

So, uh, basically your dream of a Binding of Grindea-mode (no, that's not a hentai) might yet come true, but not for the foreseeable future since the game must be finished first and that's never going to happeeeeeen!

 

[Own]

About the run length, we've talked about maybe reducing # of floors to 1 per area, and having two bosses on the same floor instead. But we'll see exactly how we solve it!

If the future of arcade absolutely had to become single-floor areas (which I would immensely dislike, making the arcade experience much shorter just so people can complete it and be done with it much more quickly)...

All three area bosses on the same floor, with a locked gate somewhere on the floor. Kill any two to progress. Kill all three for an extra score multiplier. In the cases where a floor has a 'true boss' (Gundam, Winter, Tai Ming), only one boss needs to be completed to unlock the 'true boss' chamber.

 

[XxX_MLG Noob_XxX]

This is one of those rare times where I sing Own’s praises on the forums instead of clashing with him. Lol. I pretty much agree with everything he said, even down to preferring us to keep 2 floors per area. I don’t mind the extra time. I love it. (I spotted that 0.01% players comment though <_< I’m okay with metas if they don’t defeat the purpose of current arcade. ) If floors HAVE to get shrunken down, I also agree that all bosses should be present on a given floor. In fact, I’ll add to it: The required bosses should stay required to pass. That is, you should not be permtted to pass a floor without defeating Gun-D4m, Winter, etc. where those restrictions apply.

I’m glad Teddy popped in here because he said what I’ve been saying for awhile: The concept is intriguing and it could grab more fans; however, it’s okay to have a unique game. And a lot of us who are dedicated to the game as is would be disappointed to see arcade completey changed into something else. (Honestly, if the current arcade was flat out *removed*, I’d probably drop it and stick to tf2 with the occasional Terraria.) Plus it would just take too much development time. To tack on to all that, there are just some things that the BoI version sacrifices that can never be fully retrieved. The current arcade allows for a lot of fun strategizing and planning with builds, amidst other things. It really makes you think. You can’t do this with a BoI version; you can only *acknowledge* a good build when you are randomly assigned one and adapt accordingly. There are likely other things a BoI version cannot preserve as well. Mind you, this is not to argue that the BoI version would be trash (that was never the argument); this is to argue that completely overwriting the current Arcade isn’t the best option by any means. The idea of “Order” and “Chaos” modes (ie, having the “BoI” version added on after the game is finished) is completely reasonable to me.

With Teddy’s comment and what’s been established so far, I think it’s much more beneficial to move *beyond* the idea of overwriting the current Arcade, to let the current arcade continue to exist and grow, and to engage the discussion of what this new/additional mode could be like if it was added on later (or even concurrently). That discussion is much more fun anyway. In fact, I’ll address what I think is one of the most important topics.

(A warning to readers: To get my complete thought for the next portion, you must read all of it before jumping to conclusions.)

For one thing, I think that translation of “adaptability” that you loved so much in BoI would be incredibly difficult. There are a few problems actually. (Yes, I’m on the new discussion now. So no, I’m not about to dump on your idea. Hear me out for a bit.) I haven’t seen a lot of BoI. But for the most part, a lot of the abilities seem to revolve around virtually the same idea: Shooting tears. You can shoot them in groups. You can shoot them like a machine gun. You can auto shoot them. Whatever. And each “instance” of tear shooting will more than likely change your playstyle to some extent. At the very least, it will change your recklessness. So for the most part you’re just altering the same concept/attack. The problem with Grindea is that there are so many diverse skills that don’t map well between each other and that can cause a playstyle change simply by adding a charge (though not always). Morever, Grindea has a much broader scope of close comabt vs ranged fighting, whereas BoI appears to be mostly run-and-gun.

You and Gotham came up with the idea of gaining a charge or even 2 charges each time you pick up a given spell. And my quarrel with that was that with a small number of floors and a large number of skills, you’ll pretty much never get gold charge. This means a problematically weaker character (*not* just “slightly weaker and still doable”) for certain boss fights. And it also removes the fun of gold charge skills. They’re the best.

There are a few possible ideas I have, though I don’t know that any of them are particularly useful.

1) *Provide gold charge upon skill drop, but rebalance the power as you progress.* This is nice since you are guaranteed to have fun with gold charge within a run. However, it’s a little crazy to give someone gold charge right off the bat, even if its damage is balanced. Plus it removes the fun anticipation. Even more...you’d have to limit the number of skills equipped, unless you want your character running around with 6 gold spells.

2) *Employ the “charge per skill drop” idea, but enforce skill overwriting for growth.* “The heck does that mean, Noob?” Basically, it’s the idea you and Gotham had. You can pick up new skills as new charges. However, you can overwrite a skill for a better one. So for instance, if I pick up a whirlslash at the start of a run, I’ll have bronze. Next, I come across a flamethrower skill. I can choose to keep my trash bronze whirlslash, *or* I can overwrite it for silver flamethrower. Even later, I see a chained lightening. I decide I want gold charge damage, so I sacrifice my silver flamethrower to get gold chained lightening. Now there’s variability to be had in this. Maybe we don’t want to force players to trade skills. Okay. We can let them have the option of overwriting a current skill *or* adding a new lame-o bronze skill. This adds even more choices to the player in terms of sacrifice, adaptability, and more. Going off the previous example, I could have bronze whirl, flames, and lightening with no gold or silver at all. If utilities get implemented, they should not upgrade skills. The most important thing about this idea is that it guarantees a gold charge skill (requiring sacrifices) without guaranteeing a particular skill. That is, I know that I’ll have gold charge by Tai Ming if I want, but I don’t know that I’ll have gold whirlslash by Tai Ming. I’ll be forced to make decisions. Oh. This idea also allows players to dynamically shift between extremely close combat and extremely long range. (Shifting from Earth Spike to Silver Zerk to Gold Ice Nova.)

3) Allow players to upgrade skills they’ve found by sacrificing certain amounts of hp. I’d delve deeper into this, but I’m getting bored of typing. So I won’t.


In any case, this is probably one of the most important topics for a “BoI version’s” existence since it would have heavy implications on balancing and rebalancing, as well as how “adaptable” such a mode can truly be in the Grindea universe. Well, that’s my opinion at least.

 

[Teddy]

 

[IHeartPie]

"I disagree about 1 floor per area thing. I'd rather see something like this to make run length more bearable: http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/arcade-mode-needs-shortcuts.9014/
If someone wants to make full run, go ahead and spend 90 minutes. If someone just wants to see play higher floors, then they could use shortcuts."

I think shortcuts are not the answer in terms of making a run "feel" satisfying. Once again, we're adding in another conscious choice on the players rather than providing them with something interesting. There's something to be said about a game that provides interesting content vs games where the players need to make interesting content themselves. For a roguelike/lite, the most important thing is that the game provides interesting content for you at the base level.

As for the time, honestly, a 2 hr experience every run is long.
Binding of Isaac - 30-60 min runs.
Dead Cells - 30-60 min runs.
Slay the spire - 40-80 min runs
Wizard of Legend - 30-60 min runs
Enter the gungeon - 30-60 min runs
These are typical run lengths for roguelites. I'm not pulling the fact it's long out of nowhere, I'm comparing it to other roguelites. These are not only numbers that are better for sit down and tries, but better for youtube content creators as well. WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE YOUTUBERS WHO HAVE TO MAKE 2 HOUR VIDEOS EVERY RUN?

"That's why they take multiple runs until they get maximum possible score. If someone already competes for #1 place, that person won't mind multiple perfect runs."

But having a perfect run in a daily competition with a balanced seed is much more competitive. Currently, you don't know if their perfect run is on a seed that happens 1 every 1000 times or something that can gives you the maximum possible score.

"This would be REALLY cool, but regarding what Own said, we need to avoid people poking every wall. Instead, the secret rooms would be just not mapped (until you enter them at least) and their entrance would be fixed. I mean, instead of making player randomly attack a stone and have 50% chance to find a room, make it so that a particular type of stone ALWAYS hides a secret room etc. This way you only need to try everything for the first time and then you will know if there's something hidden there. This could also introduce more interaction with environment, like making enemy do a certain thing (the boar example) or solving hidden puzzle or thorns on room border which block secret exit etc."

That's what I meant, not that randomly attacking a stone, but a set identifiable spot/marking always opens it.

"I also agree with Own that BoI's combat is basically tailored with a single goal in mind: create mutability with the upgrades. This difference means that Grindea won't ever be able to compete in that regard without super duper significant work, that way eclipses the work required to make Binding of Isaac."

Yeah, that's why I pitched for the card change as well to add more effects to the game. Currently, each run feels similar in that I know what I'm doing from level 1 and I never have to change it. My video of snow buddy is literally just 1.5 hours of me doing the same thing - running around, pressing enrage when it's up, pressing slam when it's up. I'd prefer more decision making mid-way through the run.

I believe Binding of Isaac (pre-rebirth) didn't even have tear combinations/synergies, yet that was enough to satisfy a lot of people. Same with enter the gungeon pre-advanced-dungeons-and-dragons update.

"About the run length, we've talked about maybe reducing # of floors to 1 per area, and having two bosses on the same floor instead. But we'll see exactly how we solve it!"

PLEASE THINK OF THE YOUTUBERS T-T. We can't realistically use shortcuts but have to blast through 20 floors in a reasonable amount of time. 2 hr runs means 10 hrs to record a week's video.

"That is, you should not be permtted to pass a floor without defeating Gun-D4m, Winter, etc. where those restrictions apply."

That's perfectly fine. Add an extra room for those "special gatekeeper bosses". We know Mom's heart is always floor 6 in BoI. We know Dra-Gun is always floor 5 boss in Gungeon.

" I haven’t seen a lot of BoI. But for the most part, a lot of the abilities seem to revolve around virtually the same idea: Shooting tears. You can shoot them in groups. You can shoot them like a machine gun. You can auto shoot them. Whatever. And each “instance” of tear shooting will more than likely change your playstyle to some extent. At the very least, it will change your recklessness. So for the most part you’re just altering the same concept/attack. The problem with Grindea is that there are so many diverse skills that don’t map well between each other and that can cause a playstyle change simply by adding a charge (though not always). Morever, Grindea has a much broader scope of close comabt vs ranged fighting, whereas BoI appears to be mostly run-and-gun."

That is only true if you consider "all range attacks are the same". The thing is, binding of isaac can change your weapon from regular tears, to floor marked missile drops (not unlike earth pillar), to attacks that home and hit enemies with lasers (chain lightning), to damage over time (insect swarms), to charge up and fire burst (flamethrower), and so forth. There's much broader forms of attacks than there are in grindea. Same with gungeon, even though it's a gun-based game, you still have melee weapons, guns that home, guns that require specific aiming, guns that deal damage over time, etc etc. The idea IS that you are supposed to have playstyle changes when you pick something up so that you make more decisions during the game rather than frontload it before the game and never consider your build again.

"You and Gotham came up with the idea of gaining a charge or even 2 charges each time you pick up a given spell. And my quarrel with that was that with a small number of floors and a large number of skills, you’ll pretty much never get gold charge. This means a problematically weaker character (*not* just “slightly weaker and still doable”) for certain boss fights. And it also removes the fun of gold charge skills. They’re the best."

That's not unfixable by any stretch. Add in shops that sells a set number of charges that are randomly picked - adds more chances for you to choose a charge you want. Add in an NPC that "forges" your skill to upgrade a charge. Add secret rooms that can give a charge. Add an upgrade charge increasing shrine. Allow disenchanting of charges to forge an upgrade on a charge you'd like. These are just some of the solutions for increasing the chances of you getting gold charges. Bosses can also be nerfed slightly to allow more builds to do them rather than requiring gold charge. And once again, balance is not the key focus of this - fun is. I'd feel more challenged if a game forces me to fight a fair power flower while being significantly weaker than the average and I'd have a blast if a game gives me gold charge frosty friend + gold charge cloud strike the make the run a breeze. The key is variety. Runs will not feel the same anymore.

 

[ark626]

Are we back on Vilyas MLGXPIE shoujo anime?

Btw to quote you :" Also, you can fight the memes but in the end , but in the end youll just become a meme"
So is this how you became a meme?

 

[Own]

WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE YOUTUBERS WHO HAVE TO MAKE 2 HOUR VIDEOS EVERY RUN?

I hope no game is ever made with twitch streamers/youtubers in mind, save weird gimmicky games based around that. Streamers are notorious for their impatience, skipping through text and forgetting where to go or what to do because they're more preoccupied with constant commentary/chat interaction over paying attention.

If a single floor system is ever added I'd dearly hope it was added as a treat. And if they don't want to use treats because they think it's cheating, well, that's on them.

We can't realistically use shortcuts

Why can't youtubers realistically use shortcuts? Because their viewers would call them out on it? ... Should the rest of the players have an inferior experience because of that?

My video of snow buddy is literally just 1.5 hours of me doing the same thing - running around, pressing enrage when it's up, pressing slam when it's up. I'd prefer more decision making mid-way through the run.

Sounds like you were bored by a self-inflicted gimmicky build combined with keepaway strats. An active secondary skill, or using the magic missiles launched from magic weapons would've helped with that.

I don't think adding one more layer of menu management downtime after skills, talents and gear would do much more than annoy a fair amount of people having to stop and menu whenever they received a new card. I enjoy at least one section of upgrades in game that I don't have to micromanage.

 

[IHeartPie]

"I hope no game is ever made with twitch streamers/youtubers in mind, save weird gimmicky games based around that. Streamers are notorious for their impatience, skipping through text and forgetting where to go or what to do because they're more preoccupied with constant commentary/chat interaction over paying attention.

If a single floor system is ever added I'd dearly hope it was added as a treat. And if they don't want to use treats because they think it's cheating, well, that's on them. "

Keeping in mind of YouTubers/Streamers is a part of marketing. But on top of that, it's not even just that, most of the more casual gamers prefer games that last ~30-60 mins per round or less. League games are 30-60 mins long. Dota are a bit longer but still around that range. Most team-based shooters are a couple minutes per round. Pubg lasts 20-35 mins and fortnite runs 20-25 mins. On top of all the numbers for roguelites I gave before all lasting 30-60 minutes, 90-120 mins is long. Most players wouldn't have the attention span or the time to dedicate this much time to a run.

"Why can't youtubers realistically use shortcuts? Because their viewers would call them out on it? ... Should the rest of the players have an inferior experience because of that? "

The question is whether it would be an inferior experience or not. I'm not saying no shortcuts, I'm saying shortcuts don't solve our current issue of the runs being too long. And yes youtubers can't use shortcuts, roguelite viewers prefer watching the entire run from the beginning. It's the mentality of their entertainment being artificially cut.

"Sounds like you were bored by a self-inflicted gimmicky build combined with keepaway strats. An active secondary skill, or using the magic missiles launched from magic weapons would've helped with that.

I don't think adding one more layer of menu management downtime after skills, talents and gear would do much more than annoy a fair amount of people having to stop and menu whenever they received a new card. I enjoy at least one section of upgrades in game that I don't have to micromanage."

The issue is still going to be the same. Smash is me walking into a room, smashing and killing most mobs, walk around and either smash more or basic attack super low hp enemies. The key to the point isn't the build I use was boring, it's that I was doing the same thing for the entire run, which is not true for any roguelites out there. In Isaac, you definitely change your strategy every time. In Gungeon, you get a new gun and boom, you now have more options to fire differently. In Slay the spire, every new card will add new strategies to your build. In Wizard of Legend, every new spell could completely change your combo and approach. In Dead Cells, new weapons and gadgets will change how you approach any fight.

Currently in Grindea, it's nothing like that. If I start the game decided on smash, I'll spend the next 90 mins using smash. Does it get better over time? Yes. But will I still only be using smash? Most likely.

The issue currently is that there isn't any upgrades that requires much thought. Equipment? You just equip what gives the most damage usually. Talent and skill points? Keep upgrading what you've been upgrading for your set build. If cards was implemented, it'll actually give you pause in thinking "Do I want to reflect more damage at the moment or do I want to move faster when casting? I think I might not be as good at reflecting frostling snowballs so I'll change to move faster." Something that actually requires more knowledge and decision making. This whole system also technically removes menus by not requiring you to add skills, talents and possibly gear.

This next part isn't going to be directed at anything specific, but keep in mind that all these comments/activities are from either the most long-lasting fans [Own, KoBeWi, Ark, Choco all made accounts in 2014] or the most currently active fans of grindea/arcade [Chaldo, MLG - clear from discord]. People who'd like these changes probably wouldn't be here to answer anything because they'd just be purely waiting for story mode updates.

A lot of what I'm saying seems to be taken as "This guy played Binding of Isaac and wants Secrets of Grindea: Isaac Mode". But I've played a lot more roguelites than that. I just thought Isaac is the easiest comparison because most current roguelites take some systems from it. To give you some example of these designs being instrumental in other roguelites:

• Slay the Spire would be boring without the artifact system which is essentially the passive random item pick ups from Binding of Isaac. You get random artifacts that change up your entire playstyle - "Oh, I just picked up an artifact that causes damage every time I play 3 defense cards in a turn, that means I can focus on defense and still do damage now!" Without it, you'd still be getting random cards, but the runs will feel samey pretty quickly.
• Gungeon has a tweaked random weapon/augment pick up system where you pick up a different gun and it could be used completely differently. This is more similar to our system where you can still swap back to the skill you'd like to use if you don't like the weapon/skill you just picked up. This definitely changes the game on a run-by-run basis.
• Most roguelites run 30-60 min run times as I mentioned. Some has shortcuts, but are all unnecessary due to their lowered run times.
• Slay the Spire, Spelunky, Isaac, Nuclear Throne, Dead Cells, 20XX and more all have daily runs which use the same seed for people to compete on a leaderboard. Which makes the competition a lot more fair.
• Most roguelites also don't have augments like curses/muffins to change up their game before they go in. Curses happen in the game to introduce variety.

Overall if we focus on purely the changes, yes, Secrets of Grindea will be more roguelite-like, but it'll still be Grindea. We still have some of the most unique monsters, most well design bosses. We still have the fun skill-based combat (we aren't taking away shields or attack cancelling or perfect guard or any pro skill usage). We still have the leaderboard (under fairer conditions). We still have build decisions (put in mid run so it has more variety). We still have all the charming dialogue, art, music, all that. These all separate Grindea from other roguelites out there.

 

[Own]

The key to the point isn't the build I use was boring, it's that I was doing the same thing for the entire run, which is not true for any roguelites out there.

I could be wrong on this, but I believe there's a core difference between arcade and those other games you're missing.

Arcade doesn't exist for wacky, zany, random hijinks where every run feels different and unique. It exists as a place for people to go when they've finished story content and want something to test themselves. You're meant to pick a few different builds and go "I can beat wave after wave of enemy and boss with this build without dying once, in increasingly difficult situations." It's a test of player skill where HP actually matters for once.

If the idea of smashballing enemies for a while doesn't sound appealing it probably means you've burnt out on the game a little bit or aren't enjoy the build you're using. You're not meant to change wildly throughout the run, the obstacles are. You're supposed to adapt to changing enemies, bosses and hazards, to master your build across all of those different challenges.

Gimmicky upgrades like other BoI-likes have (Sacred Chilidog! +200% movespeed, drop gold when you get hit!) would make things feel really weird in a game mode that's based around challenge and not complete randomness.

I guess Teddy could add in things that modify existing skills (Fertilizer! Plants have double range!), but then you run into the problem of 1. It not being a test of the actual game mechanics and 2. People getting upset when they get upgrades for skills they're not using.

 

[XxX_MLG Noob_XxX]

Obviously I don't intend to be a major part of this discussion but I'll toss a few comments in.

1) Problems with Time Length. This problem has actually already been addressed. A while back we discussed it in the discord, and the idea Teddy brought up was basically a way to "quick-save" in arcade without threatening the fairness of the scoreboards. This allows regular users to leave and return as they need to if the run is taking too long. As for YouTubers, they can just say, "See you next time" and save and quit -- just like they would with a regular story mode. For Streamers...I mean you're streaming. So it really depends on how long your audience is willing to stay.

Actually, depending on how shortcuts are used (if they're implemented), they'd have virtually the same exact effect. Go up to F9. "See you next time!" Come back with a short cut "Now we continue with..." And ultimately, there is no difference. You can carry the saved slot of your most recent run back with you, though the seed may be different. (Of course, no one would notice the seed difference because you'd be in the first room of the run. You can strategically end your run on those starter floors.) So in a sense, your run "never changed".

Making runs shorter is another options but it isn't necessary -- especially with the other options of quick-saving and such being available. Saving and/or shortcuts add modularity to arcade -- both from a programming and a user perspective. Simply cutting the runs down in length entirely removes certain aspects of arcade (which doesn't have to be done), effectively reducing modularity while increasing programming effort (rebalancing player levels, number of enemies, number of rooms, etc.).

EDIT: I think it's also fair to consider the idea that not every game is meant to be streamed/recorded for YouTuber revenue. That is, not all games are intended to meet YouTube's strict rules (for revenue gain) or to meet an impatient generation's general viewing/watching preferences. Many games are simply meant to be enjoyed by the people who play them (and this game is certainly enjoyable)...and nothing more. On the topic of marketing, it can only take Grindea so far. There are several factors that play into this: 1) Being the lack of Mega YouTubers knowing about/playing the game and 2) Being the fact that Grindea is still in development. So I don't think that aspect/point bears much weight in this current context. But even so, this is a side conversation that doesn't really impact the "parent discussion" significantly.

2) Pie's Response to my comment. A few things. (Oh no...subcomments of subcomments.)

A] For one thing, those two comments of mine were the least important comments in my entire post. As I said, those comments should not be used to consider my complete thought on the topic. I used them as a diving board into the 3 ideas I gave afterwards.

B] For another thing, we really don't want to spam skills at players by any means at all. Chucking skills at them to "make up for the difficulty of making gold charge" just gives people a ton of useless bronze/silver skills at best and a ton of gold skills at worst (yes, at worst). The former is chaotic but still weak...kinda useless and less fun; the latter is also chaotic but ridiculously strong. Arcade would literally lose significance because you could use any gold skill you want. We might as well allow /skillpoint in arcade so people can equip whatever they please and kill whomever they want. EDIT: I'm being hyperbolic here btw. Obviously the player will not have literally every skill (at least I hope not). But it's certainly plausible for them to have randomly attain an unwieldy number of gold charged skills.

C] Balance is an integral part of any game. It's a necessity. Balance does not by any means suggest that every ability or build ultimately has the same dps. It means that the builds are generally fair with respect to each other and that their abilities to handle enemies and bosses are also fair. We can make a game where you're permanently in godmode so that you can't get hurt and always do 99999999 damage while implementing your idea. We can also implement your idea and make the player do 0 damage to all enemies in the room but take 999999999 damage. However, they're pretty much the most extreme forms of game imbalance and would hardly be [repeatedly] enjoyed by anyone. As you move farther and farther away from those extremes, you enter the discussion of balance that I (and others) keep pointing to. Game balance can never be disregarded or comparatively trivialized; it always contributes significantly to whether or not a game is "fun". You inherently know this even though you reiterate that balance is less significant. The idea of nerfing bosses suggests that more fun would be had in facing bosses with the possibility to win rather than in facing bosses without any chance of winning. Honestly though, this comment (actually, this sub-portion of the overarching conversation) isn't really relevant. With Teddy's establishment of the current arcade being worth preserving -- in addition to the ideas I gave to possibly solve the problems I brought up -- I'm not sure why you brought up the balance thing again. I think it's best to toss the "fun over balance" thing aside. After all, they can be implemented together.

 

[IHeartPie]

"I could be wrong on this, but I believe there's a core difference between arcade and those other games you're missing.

Arcade doesn't exist for wacky, zany, random hijinks where every run feels different and unique. It exists as a place for people to go when they've finished story content and want something to test themselves. You're meant to pick a few different builds and go "I can beat wave after wave of enemy and boss with this build without dying once, in increasingly difficult situations." It's a test of player skill where HP actually matters for once."

The thing is that it could've been just a test of skill - sort of like a survival mode in a fighting game. Randomness in terms of challenge rooms, shrines, item rooms, room curse challenges, nurses, etc, did not need to exist. The fact that this randomness was added means that in an underlying level, roguelite elements was planned into it. Currently, it's not a full test of mechanics either because not all skills are being tested. You're purely tested on your ability to take one build and execute it. The game doesn't test your ability to make builds because you can just follow other people's builds. The game doesn't test your ability to use variety, only your ability to pull one build off. The game doesn't test your decision making skills, because the actual game is a sequence of "this item has more damage/defence, thus it's better".

"If the idea of smashballing enemies for a while doesn't sound appealing it probably means you've burnt out on the game a little bit or aren't enjoy the build you're using. You're not meant to change wildly throughout the run, the obstacles are. You're supposed to adapt to changing enemies, bosses and hazards, to master your build across all of those different challenges."

The thing is, if I'm burnt out, which I'm not saying I am, what's wrong with pitching a change for a version of the game that doesn't get burnt out on as easily? There really isn't anything that the game is meant to be from the beginning, since this mode has changed quite a bit over time and it's obvious that Teddy still enjoys doing testings. The only thing this mode isn't is the current form of arcade.

"This problem has actually already been addressed. A while back we discussed it in the discord, and the idea Teddy brought up was basically a way to "quick-save" in arcade without threatening the fairness of the scoreboards. This allows regular users to leave and return as they need to if the run is taking too long. As for YouTubers, they can just say, "See you next time" and save and quit -- just like they would with a regular story mode. For Streamers...I mean you're streaming. So it really depends on how long your audience is willing to stay."

That's not exactly solving all the problems. First, part of the charm of roguelite videos is the modular nature of it all. You haven't watched something in a while, jump right back in without an issue of it being the 2nd half of an episode. I don't even need a save slot for that since I'd likely record both videos at the same time. People also have the attention span of 20-60 mins usually, and would prefer each video be conclusive within that time. This is also all ignoring the fact that I mentioned all other roguelite games/shooters/mobas and other popular games have timeframes of less than an hour because that's the general stance of the market - people prefer bite size content to jump back into. It's the reduction in the "dread of starting something you can't finish". Most people only have certain amounts of time for gaming - especially those working. Having more bite-sized chunks that people can decide how many rounds to play rather than getting cut off at half the experience is shown to be more important to the market.

"I think it's also fair to consider the idea that not every game is meant to be streamed/recorded for YouTuber revenue. "

Once again, the entire discussion seems to ignore the fact I brought up about other popular games taking 1 hour max per session. I mentioned the YouTube thing as one reason, but not the sole reason I'm asking for the decrease in game length. Making the game more accessible to players is the key point I want to bring up. These are marketing points that aren't only for YouTube, but for general game enjoyment as well.

"A] For one thing, those two comments of mine were the least important comments in my entire post. As I said, those comments should not be used to consider my complete thought on the topic. I used them as a diving board into the 3 ideas I gave afterwards."

The 3 ideas was under the assumption that the gold charge issue was unfixable outside of those. I was merely pitching other methods to fixing the problem.

"B] For another thing, we really don't want to spam skills at players by any means at all. Chucking skills at them to "make up for the difficulty of making gold charge" just gives people a ton of useless bronze/silver skills at best and a ton of gold skills at worst (yes, at worst). The former is chaotic but still weak...kinda useless and less fun; the latter is also chaotic but ridiculously strong. Arcade would literally lose significance because you could use any gold skill you want. We might as well allow /skillpoint in arcade so people can equip whatever they please and kill whomever they want. EDIT: I'm being hyperbolic here btw. Obviously the player will not have literally every skill (at least I hope not). But it's certainly plausible for them to have randomly attain an unwieldy number of gold charged skills."

It's a balance, but the idea is that you are rewarded with more opportunities with more skillful/knowledgeable play. Finding secret rooms, completing bishop challenges, saving money for shops instead of nurses, completing challenge rooms, etc are supposed to be the options for players to get new skills. The lucky players can ignore these and still get gold charge, which makes at least some runs feel more interesting to them (so they don't get permanently stuck on the lower floors and get bored). The unlucky pros can still make things work due to extra opportunities to get skills. Most of your points are extremely hyperbolic in terms of examples. There's lots of wiggle room between "tons of useless bronze/silver skills and a ton of gold skills". Upgrades guarantee at least some singular skill progression while having variety would actually feel nice for once - it gives decision making skills back to the players mid run. "I usually run melee, so I'd like to upgrade this silver whirlslash, but I also got a bunch of magic and that casting card, so maybe upgrading silver fireball would be better? Hmmm"

"C] Balance is an integral part of any game. It's a necessity. Balance does not by any means suggest that every ability or build ultimately has the same dps. It means that the builds are generally fair with respect to each other and that their abilities to handle enemies and bosses are also fair. We can make a game where you're permanently in godmode so that you can't get hurt and always do 99999999 damage while implementing your idea. We can also implement your idea and make the player do 0 damage to all enemies in the room but take 999999999 damage. However, they're pretty much the most extreme forms of game imbalance and would hardly be [repeatedly] enjoyed by anyone. As you move farther and farther away from those extremes, you enter the discussion of balance that I (and others) keep pointing to. Game balance can never be disregarded or comparatively trivialized; it always contributes significantly to whether or not a game is "fun". You inherently know this even though you reiterate that balance is less significant. The idea of nerfing bosses suggests that more fun would be had in facing bosses with the possibility to win rather than in facing bosses without any chance of winning. Honestly though, this comment (actually, this sub-portion of the overarching conversation) isn't really relevant. With Teddy's establishment of the current arcade being worth preserving -- in addition to the ideas I gave to possibly solve the problems I brought up -- I'm not sure why you brought up the balance thing again. I think it's best to toss the "fun over balance" thing aside. After all, they can be implemented together."

These are extremely hyperbolic to the point where it really doesn't contribute to the conversation. No one is suggesting a card that makes you invulnerable nor is someone suggesting people run wooden sword only runs (Besides xEleaa). I'm all for game balance, but I'm also here to talk about game balance to a point. Looking through the forums and discord, there's plenty of complaints about game balance - frosty, smash being strong, certain rooms being strong, certain bosses being strong, etc. Some are valid, some require janky fixes that doesn't make for the most ideal solution (like score reduction). My point with this is that you don't need everything to be equal 1-to-1. People complaining about Frosty because it's too useful or barrier being too good is just complaining because they feel cheap for using it but it's too good to not use in a direct competition using different builds in a run for the same leaderboard. If everything is randomized and non-leaderboarded, it doesn't matter what other people have because the run you're having is different from them. The daily seeded runs will instead have the same seed so you and the people actually competing will get the same build - whether that's with or without frosty or barrier - such that your actual skills with any build can be tested. People playing through a seeded run in BoI isn't going to complain about a certain item being OP because they get the same item - and it's about how you use that item in that certain run. That way, it's not about "fun over balance", it's that fun is fun, balance is balance. You compare scores in a daily run where everyone is skilled the same way, so the only factor is player skill, rather than skill-OPness. You have fun in a regular run, which lets you run different builds and test your overall skill. That's why I bring it up. Teddy said current arcade is worth preserving, but that doesn't mean this idea isn't worth anything either, so please stop using it to shut down the discussion. Thank you.

 

[XxX_MLG Noob_XxX]

Pie at this point you're just putting words in my mouth. Let's explore the exhibits:

A) Most importantly, I never tried to shut down this conversation. In fact, in my comment way way earlier, I sought to encourage more discussion on it: ..."and to engage the discussion of what this new/additional mode could be like if it was added on later (or even concurrently). That discussion is much more fun anyway. In fact, I’ll address what I think is one of the most important topics."

B) I never said my solutions were the only solutions. I said that they were a few options that existed...and I even added that they may not be valid solutions since better solutions likely existed.

C) I already pointed out that the examples I gave about game imbalance were extremes. And I already said not everything has to be equal 1-to-1.

Please, my mans. If you're going to respond to me, read what I'm saying carefully and avoid jumping to assumptions.

 

[IHeartPie]

"With Teddy's establishment of the current arcade being worth preserving -- in addition to the ideas I gave to possibly solve the problems I brought up -- I'm not sure why you brought up the balance thing again"

A] That's the reason why I'm saying you're trying to shut down the conversation. Essentially, you told me that "With what teddy said and my ideas, I don't know why you're still talking about the balance thing". Because I still have points to make. I directly quoted what parts I'm referring to, so no need to bring up what you previously said to "encourage more discussion".

B] Same with A, you were saying in addition to the ideas I gave to possibly solve the problems, there's no need for me to bring it up again, which is why I'm saying that I added additional ideas to the same problem you brought up, but you seem to have ignored those because you think that my points have no merit to be brought up.

C] You said that, but that doesn't really exempt the extremities of the example. "We can make a game where you're permanently in godmode so that you can't get hurt and always do 99999999 damage while implementing your idea. We can also implement your idea and make the player do 0 damage to all enemies in the room but take 999999999 damage. However, they're pretty much the most extreme forms of game imbalance and would hardly be [repeatedly] enjoyed by anyone." You literally said "we can also implement your idea and make the player do 0 damage. You are equating the idea to the extremes to dismiss it. I never said we throw balance out the window. I'm saying balance is not as stressed as it is in the current times where we have multiple forum posts about how frosty is unfair or barrier is unfair, etc.

Can we stop attacking the wording and get back to the actual discussion please? Throwing things like "my mans" isn't really going to help the conversation any as well - considering you asked me to not use emoticons, I'd ask that you avoid colloquialism to voice your frustrations.

 

[XxX_MLG Noob_XxX]

Pie I tried. I genuinely tried. I've tried multiple times. But the degree to which you are cramming words down my throat is insurmountable. I try to explain myself and another issue pops up. I say something peacefully and it's assumed to be a voice of my frustrations. I feel like I can't say anything at all without something being assumed about me or without a gun being pointed at my head. I'm sorry that I only cause problems. I should've disappeared entirely instead of disappearing halfway. I'll correct that mistake this time. That way, you won't have to worry about blocking me. I'll never bother you or anyone else ever again.

 

[IHeartPie]

I've literally quoted everything I'm referring to. If you think I misinterpreted it, say what you meant by it. If you think I'm shoving words down your throat, disprove what I've quoted. I'm not here to antagonize anyone. I was merely trying avoid you shoving words down my mouth in assuming that I meant balance wasn't necessary.

 

[Supreme Cocktus Leader]

So, on the floor size thing: I support the idea of less, but much more fleshed out (in a different sense than a certain Isaac floor, by the way) floors. It's not really a time thing for me, though. I just feel like it'd flow a lot nicer having an optional boss who'll be guaranteed to give a skill/equip/whatever and a gatekeeper boss who you need to beat.

I am not 100% convinced on the secret rooms though. Not sure how they'd be comfortably implemented. You suggested having target statues, but those are pretty big and pretty obvious. Without the bow rework you suggested on discord I'm not sure it'd be a good equivalent to Isaac's bombs or Gungeon's.. uh, probably some kind of gun or bullet joke. Boars would be fun, but they wouldn't exactly be secret rooms since the rocks are pretty obvious, and having boars on other floors would instantly say there's a secret room. Maybe just locking rooms behind the optional boss would be the best way to go about a bonus room type thing, but there's probably a few worthwhile arguments against that.

I agree with most other things Pie's said here, though used as a third mode would be preferable to an outright replacement, if only because Teddy said so and I need to get in his good graces by agreeing.

On the time thing, I certainly don't enjoy spending more than an hour on something I'll likely lose all progress for, and saves would just kind of be uncomfortable to use, since the runs are fairly fast paced, not like FTL, Convoy, or to a lesser extent Streets Of Rogue (which can be either fast or slow paced) (I also don't ever use the saves in SoR). It'd be like watching an action movie and pausing to go out during the best action scene, but because it's a game like this all the scenes are action scenes. It's uncomfortable and at that point I'd rather restart the run (or movie, if you care about continued metaphors) than continue where I left off. Of course, that may very well be a "me" problem rather than something the game needs to worry about. After all, I could just not use the saves.

Last thing I really want to comment on is the removal of curses and treats. I don't think they should stop existing, but I do think they shouldn't lower a score or anything, and also shouldn't be capped at 3. Adopting the same, or a similar, system to Streets Of Rogue's would be better, I feel. Having disasters that happen (ex. all elites) for a floor, or from a Bishop in the first room similar to the current "I'll double the enemies" (keep that anyway though.) etc system but for the whole floor, while also having completely separate mutators out-of-runs ("all elites" would still be applicable here.). I think this is a happy middle between wanting to keep the modifiers and wanting them to happen at random. Hell, SoR even has a god mode mutator where you can't unlock anything, including achievements, but are also able to spawn in items you want. Easily replicatable here by giving enough skill points to unlock all the spells and talents. This would also work sufficiently to practice full runs, too.

Also, ladies, ladies, you're both beautiful. What do we have discord for if you're just going to argue on the forums anyway?