I have no respect for what Starbound are doing.

[Hobo]

So for those of us who found Secrets of Grindea through Tiy playing it instead of working on the promises he's been delaying to the players of his game Starbound, it seemed like he was trying to push to publish Grindea, thankfully this wasn't the case and Pixel Ferrets stayed away.

Under moral professionalism and respect, Pixel Ferrets have taken a very respectable stance of not having a problem or even commenting on the likeness and major similarities and coincidence in them playing the closed beta then suddenly using an almost identical combat system for their own game.
Source:

Spoiler

http://playstarbound.com/monster-combat-changes/

I know this doesn't really effect us or have any negative connotations, I just think they should have at least recognized or acknowledged that their combat system was taken almost directly from Grindea.

anyone feel like discussing?

 

[Donald]

Oh wow. You could argue they already had the idea and saw some gameplay footage and had to try it because it was just like their idea?

 

[ark626]

Yeah i think Tiy made up his mind and posted the thanks to the Pixelferrets team via twitter
If its okay for Pixelferrets its okay for me.

At first i just was like "WOAH he should have credited Pixelferrets. But after he did that i think its okay if its okay for them."
I also think that there is a clear prove that this system was mainly and first used BY the Secrets of Grindea crew.
And i think this system plays out in an other way than tiy expected it.

@Donald i dont think so because they implemented so many details EQUAL as in SoG like the little ShieldHP bar above and the Perfect Guard is also implemented in exact that way if i read this post properly i just hope they add at least some own ideas into it. thats all.

I dont mind using inspiration from other games but copie a complete system without changing a little bit is just a VERY strange coincidence.

 

[Teddy]

While the changes to Starbound is certainly a move away from Terraria and towards something akin to Secrets of Grindea, I personally don't bother to have an opinion on the matter and here's why:

The worth of a concept is so much less than its implementation. I'm guessing you've already heard about "Ideas vs. Execution" a billion times. When I heard of this, as a coder/designer the only thought in my head was "this sounds so difficult to implement well in a Terraria style game". If they manage to implement it seamlessly, they will have done 90 % of the job even if they did blatantly pull everything (but the 2h-block) from our game. In my opinion, at least.

My guess is that Tiy have been playing games that focus on tight gameplay rather than exploration mechanics and have been feeling an urge to marry both aspects in his own game. It's honestly not surprising that such shift would result in moving towards SoG since SB was never about [combat] gameplay while to SoG gameplay is paramount.

 

[Renegade]

I think it's kind of unfair to assume they just stole everything from SoG.

Things like perfect guarding have existed a long time before Starbound or SoG, and I'm fairly sure Starbound originally promised a perfect guard system way before anyone was playing SoG. For some reason, combat didn't seem to end up how they made it sound, and they've been talking about revamping it ever since the game hit Early Access last year. Plus, what they've announced for it is what a lot of players have been requesting

If SoG helped set the changes to Starbound's combat in place, or even inspired the final revision for their changes, I think that's more a compliment to SoG than anything else. SoG's combat is pretty nice so far, and it's not like SoG and Starbound are even the same genre of game.

 

[RNorthex]

well honestly, when i saw grindea my first thoughts were "zelda/dark souls" because of the view and because the combat required learning enemy patterns and utilizing skills/attacks effectively, rather than just relying on stats
starbound definitely seems like it has ripped off ideas, but honestly, that maybe a good thing
if they implement it well, think of it this way:
i like the game even more so on sight because it had "dark soulsish" elements
people will be intrigued the same way seeing that it has "starboundish" elements even if starbound ripped of grindea
in the end, what matters is that more people will be exposed to the idea of skill-based combat, potentially finding grindea more attractive due to previous experiences with it

 

[Hobo]

It was their own promises, they made them, they're two years behind schedule and they are blaming their userbase for the delayed patches because we're not liking how they do things. Someone calculated from his twitter posts and other social media updates that he only works something like 10 hours a week, They have two programmers and 8 sprite developers, does something seem wrong there?

they promised patches "thick and fast" "Multiple times a day" We've had a handful of patches since october last year since they promised "thick and fast" and none of them have been good patches that fix any of the bugs(mainly art assets and nothing to do with gameplay), it's all more useless features and inherently broken content.

I loved this game, I really did, I learnt to mod, I made a very successful mod, I felt a little better inside about the game ( although the mod system is also structurally flawed and to change core aspects will still require you to basically hack the game, for a game that started bragging to be made to be modded, they did a shit job at letting us modify things )

They approached a close friend of mine and asked to use his mod in their game, made him sign a NDA and then they kept him in the dark for three months, their last combat update was basically taking what he had done in his mod and adding it into the game, most of which they didn't do right.

I currently have a Diploma in software development and I am studying a double major in Programming and Specialized Programming, I can understand how hard development can be, but all I can say is they don't seem to be working very hard, and I can't even blame the team, their community manager/HR front person is severely underqualified and doesn't seem to know what she is doing, and the creator of the game seems to be dragging everyone down, the last time a developer of starbound posted something on the forums to a user, Tiy ( who is just a sprite artist, now the idea guy ) made snark remarks and snapped at them, I dare you to go on the forum and criticize something constructively, See how it goes, go on.

They are missing their own deadlines ( release was supposed to be before 2013, then beta was supposed to be until release in 2013, now it's "When it's done" ) they have not even attempted to justify what they have done in the last 7 months.

You're the worst kind of player, who idealizes developers like gods, and will jump to defend them no matter what, They have not even gotten Starbound into a respectable state and they have decided to start developing another game, they're also "publishing" other peoples games by making them go get their own funding ( huh? I thought publishers paid the developers to get the game out there, apparently not, just posting their stuff on your blog makes you their publisher )

I could continue for days but I would rather not dwell on it any more than I already have over the last year or so of waiting for promises to never come true.

 

[Hobo]

I won't continue with this but I respect your opinion as your own, it's quite apparent you're issue isn't with me or chucklefish but with a stereotype of an ungrateful player and with barely touching the game I don't believe you are in any state to be arguing against or for anything, not to discredit you, but with 5 hours and minimal exposure, how can you come in and say I am unfairly bashing a developer because he isn't dedicating every breath to development, when that is not the case, my gripe with them is that of the fact they don't work on their game, it's unacceptable from a group of people that have taken millions of dollars with promises to finish the game and do all the things they promised before release, breaking their deadlines by over a year without any justification or significant signs of progress other than blaming the players.

 

[Renegade]

It kind of does sound like you're bashing the developer. I mean, you've gone from a post about how you think they ripped off one mechanic from SoG, to a whole rant about how you think the devs do no work and the game sucks and everything else. That's a big jump - from discussion of one mechanic, to ranting about the entire dev team and their game, and it makes it harder to believe that you aren't just expecting more than your 15 bucks entitles you to.

IMO you shouldn't buy early access games unless you can accept the possibility that the current state of the game is the final state of it. Like, if SoG announced they were done with the game right now, and today's update was the last one, I'd be okay with it - disappointed that there'd be nothing new, but I feel like I got my money's worth already.

 

[Donald]

It kind of does sound like you're bashing the developer. I mean, you've gone from a post about how you think they ripped off one mechanic from SoG, to a whole rant about how you think the devs do no work and the game sucks and everything else. That's a big jump - from discussion of one mechanic, to ranting about the entire dev team and their game, and it makes it harder to believe that you aren't just expecting more than your 15 bucks entitles you to.

IMO you shouldn't buy early access games unless you can accept the possibility that the current state of the game is the final state of it. Like, if SoG announced they were done with the game right now, and today's update was the last one, I'd be okay with it - disappointed that there'd be nothing new, but I feel like I got my money's worth already.

Its all about that arcade mode! <3

 

[Xathos]

So for those of us who found Secrets of Grindea through Tiy playing it instead of working on the promises he's been delaying to the players of his game Starbound, it seemed like he was trying to push to publish Grindea, thankfully this wasn't the case and Pixel Ferrets stayed away.

Under moral professionalism and respect, Pixel Ferrets have taken a very respectable stance of not having a problem or even commenting on the likeness and major similarities and coincidence in them playing the closed beta then suddenly using an almost identical combat system for their own game.
Source:

Spoiler

http://playstarbound.com/monster-combat-changes/

I know this doesn't really effect us or have any negative connotations, I just think they should have at least recognized or acknowledged that their combat system was taken almost directly from Grindea.

anyone feel like discussing?

While you're at it, let's hate on every single 4x strategy based on the style of Civilization. The two most recent would be Age of Wonders 3 and Warlock 2. I'm sure nobody is playing those on Steam.

How about anything that uses Rogue-like elements? Plenty of those. Wait, doesn't SoG have that in the Arcade Mode? Uh oh.

Threads, like this, are pointless bitching over how "unoriginal" things are. Game design is a balance between iteration and innovation. Indies tend to be moreso toward the latter. Innovation is the goal, but it'd be foolish not to look at the mechanics of other titles, and see what your peers did to solve their design faults. Not doing so is actually bad game design in itself. What matters is how you adapt these mechanics toward your title. This is why you have a difference between Starbound and Terraria. This is why you have a difference in AoW 3 and Civ V. This is why you have a difference between Endless Space and Sins of a Solar Empire.

Tiy didn't hire Molly (community manager) to "lurk in" on other indies to steal a bunch of mechanics, let alone, the whole publisher front they're doing. I'm sure he, and the whole team, looked at other "standards and practices" in their peers to see what could work best for Starbound (along with constant fan feedback), but unless they're doing wholesale copypasta and repackaging of the whole game, I wouldn't be so quick to throw them under a bus.

On a side note, I don't know if Pixel Ferrats are looking for a publisher, but I was going to suggest they talk to Chucklefish (if Molly or Tiy hadn't already done so).

 

[ark626]

I personally dont like the idea that PixelFerrets are publishing via Chucklefish (not because i dont like CHucklefish, i like them really much) but i think PixelFerrets is doing fine and as soon as they have the game more finished it will sell itself trough Steam etc.

But as i said earlier thats not my decision and i wont go to any dev and tell him how he should sell his or her game because thats like telling a taxidriver how to drive a car... it would make me sound like smartass.

 

[Xathos]

I personally dont like the idea that PixelFerrets are publishing via Chucklefish (not because i dont like CHucklefish, i like them really much) but i think PixelFerrets is doing fine and as soon as they have the game more finished it will sell itself trough Steam etc.

Depends if they need the extra money/help to complete it. They might be fine with self-publishing. I don't know. It's up to them. It'd also be another cut they'd lose out on, but Risk of Rain and Starbound did good under Chucklefish. They haven't shown themselves to be bad yet (inexperienced, but very much willing).

 

[ark626]

@Xathos it doesnt depend because as you said

It's up to them.

I also see that they havent made a bad job at all with all their projects ^^

i just said i wouldnt like it but thats just personal taste thats all.

 

[Momizi]

Grindea would olny need a puplisher if they wanted to skip the greenlight for steam

they already got past it so they dont need one

and even if they did get one i would be ok with it being them

but like i sead before, they got past the greenlite, so it would be uderly pointless to get one

 

[Xathos]

You guys do realize what publishers can do, yeah? They invest resources in completing the game for a chunk of the profit. At the very least, they can forward money, to the developers, to help finish the game (numerous ways in helping game development with that. There's also the simple matter of getting paid.). In some cases, like with Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion, almost the entire game was developed inhouse by Stardock's (publisher) team with some guidance by Ironclad (original developer). It ended up far better than the original product (even with all DLC).

It depends on who the publisher. Many large publishers are greedy assholes who take very large cuts of the profit (60%+). Some are good to work worth, and kind to the PC platform (Square Enix). Depends on if they think they have enough resources to finish their vision of the game. Self-publishing an indie title, let alone, for the first time, is a very big gamble. So far, they've done good, but who knows what's lurking around the corner. There is a reason why the majority of games have a publisher.

 

[Momizi]

yah but inorder to have you game on steam you NEED a publisher

(is a rule for having your game on steam is you need a publisher)

but grindea got on steam from greenlite

so they dont NEED one

is what my point is

 

[Xathos]

yah but inorder to have you game on steam you NEED a publisher

(is a rule for having your game on steam is you need a publisher)

but grindea got on steam from greenlite

so they dont NEED one

is what my point is

I'm listed everything BUT the obvious. Why highlight a point that was already made? Besides, they're doing away with Greenlight and allowing self-publishing.

 

[Onlyalittlemad]

I don't agree with attacking CF randomly on these forums about anything other than the glaringly obvious mechanics lift.
A reason some people might feel as if this is basically a developer stealing another game's combat mechanic might have a lot to do with how SB has been developed. It does feel pretty shady if you're sane and have been paying attention to SB's dev progress. With how the head of the whole kitchen caboodle generally acts.

Spoiler

The guy posting the small rant about that developer is pretty spot on, they've been pretty atrocious with what they've said vs what they do. How they act on their own forums/reddit, how they let their moderators act, the excuses for delays constantly being different because the last excuse becomes void. Its just insulting to someone whose directly contributed to said company, to have your money not used as it was intended. Wanting a new and enriching game to play, but having the majority of content be lifted from the modding community directly, or in this new, really grotesque case; another game entirely.

While you're at it, let's hate on every single 4x strategy based on the style of Civilization. The two most recent would be Age of Wonders 3 and Warlock 2. I'm sure nobody is playing those on Steam.

I feel there is a very sizable difference between games that share similar concepts and base mechanics. Than this particular situation.
This is, a game's combat mechanic being taken, then put into another game that hasn't yet attempted combat balance in the first place, not seriously, anyway.
This is, a game's combat mechanic being taken, put into another game, after the lead developer streamed the game, then asked to publish the game and then got turned down. Theres no logic to the changes other than "The combat in this game was fun and not a giant stale jumping simulator. Lets add it in there!" Its not made for Starbound, its going to be clunky, and will probably get over hauled like crazy so it no longer resembles Grindea. Hopefully.

Depends if they need the extra money/help to complete it. They might be fine with self-publishing. I don't know. It's up to them. It'd also be another cut they'd lose out on, but Risk of Rain and Starbound did good under Chucklefish. They haven't shown themselves to be bad yet (inexperienced, but very much willing).

Grindea is looking to be supa fun, and I think they'll be fine on their own, they know that. They've got a solid project.

 

[Teddy]

On a side note, I don't know if Pixel Ferrats are looking for a publisher, but I was going to suggest they talk to Chucklefish (if Molly or Tiy hadn't already done so).

I actually have no idea how "word got out" that we turned them down, but since it did, here's the reasoning we gave:

While being published by Chucklefish would absolutely give us some strong, free advertising among their pretty sizable fan base, letting a larger company put their name on your product creates a significant risk of customer confusion. Even now, when we aren't being published by CF people still say Grindea is a CF-game sometimes (luckily to be quickly refuted most of the time).

For example, I wager many don't know who made Risk of Rain, or who's making Stardew Valley and that pirate game. To many people, maybe even most, those are all "Chucklefish Games", myself included I shamefully admit.

We want Grindea to be a Pixel Ferrets game, and we hope we've got a good enough product at release to reach reasonable success without publishing it under a different name!