Lore speculations / discussion (spoiler alert!)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by res7less, Mar 28, 2016.

  1. GrindeaElmeri

    GrindeaElmeri Green Slime

    Nah good reflexes actually aren't enough, sorry. :/ I only got into the game last week and had no idea there's spoilers outside of Frontlines -content and the dev-blog, so I had already read the entire post by the time I realized.
  2. Teddy

    Teddy Developer Staff Member

    As someone who's allergic to spoilers and also tend to read a few sentences before my brain actually kicks in, I'll have to side with Res7less and GrindeaElmeri! I think it's best if the discussion is assumed to relate to what can actually be observed in the game.

    I think spoiler tags should be used even in here, both for information from the Devblog and Vilya's blog, as well as any spoilery non-accessible information the translation crews can dig out from the translation tools!
    Devel0per and Enoen like this.
  3. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    Sorry for spoiling you the game, Teddy :(

    tbh, I've seen Rogue One ending spoiler before watching it and my reflexes failed me too. But it was in a place I didn't expect, this topic has spoiler warning in the title, so obviously you should be extra careful :bag:

    Anyways, I'll add some spoiler tags next time.
    Enoen and Teddy like this.
  4. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    Luckily, I did. But the point is just that there is already the Vilya's blog thread to discuss stuff from, well, Vilya's blog. Sure, this thread has spoiler warnings too, but I actually meant it for stuff that's in the game - maybe I should have been more specific. There was this one time I discovered something in the translation tool and also refrained from mentioning it here, because it was technically not part of the game. Just keep in mind to be more considerate.
    Enoen likes this.
  5. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    But that thread is to discuss stuff directly from the blog, like Own's suggestions.
    Maybe post it using a proper spoiler. I edited my last post, so it explicitly says that it speculates on not-yet-in-game content and if someone wants to avoid it, they just won't open the spoiler. I think it's fair to make such posts in this topic (with explicit spoilers ofc).

    It's lore speculation after all, we should be able to use all bits of information here to create bizarre theories :fish:
    Enoen and res7less like this.
  6. Enoen

    Enoen Rabby

    I agree. We just have to tag everything with the spoiler thing regardless. This is all just speculation anyways to not speculate based on information it wouldn't be much of a sincere theory since in the back of heads it's gonna be there. I'll just brand all future spoilery stuff with the phrase "I'm serious this is a spoiler" followed by whatever the spoiler is related to I guess without mentioning names.

    Besides Teddy I've never been spot on about anything in the game. You guys are just incredibly unpredictable. It's a good thing and means we're all just becoming this community of theorists and overthinkers for an excellent game which I'm sure will become the number 1 game on steam once it's fully completed if it isn't already.
    res7less likes this.
  7. Own

    Own Moderator

    They just don't want anyone speculating on things from purely in-game content to have spoilers from the dev blogs they may be avoiding popping up. GoT show watchers vs GoT book readers.
  8. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    Well, with the last update, some major questions were answered. While I did love the way how everything was presented, including Zhamla's art, the boss battle, Sizou's death etc., I would be lying if I said that I wasn't disappointed to some degree. Not because many of my assumptions were wrong, but because of all the interesting, complex, deep reasons Zhamla could have had for becoming what he had, it was as simple as what Professor Pine said in his very first entry in the very first monitor we get to read: he just went mad and has become exactly the villain he was described as. While I was right about the search for a human card (I know, I wasn't the only one) as a reason for his madness, it's the reason for his search that bugs me. There was barely any connection to Tessen, except for that he initially wanted to protect her. Even worse, in the end she turned against him and took the curse to stop him, not to help him. I don't know, it's kind of not sad enough, I guess? But okay, it's supposed to be a fun game after all, perhaps I was expecting too much drama.

    On the bright side, though, in many other games we are often simply told that some great hero went mad. Here, we get to live through all of that, the events and the turns that all lead to that madness, which was definitely great. And the way everything is presented and revealed piece by piece is really good. The only game that comes to mind where one gets to see a protagonist slowly becoming a villain is Arthas' story in Warcraft III, but there are probably other examples.

    Also, there are still open questions as Zhamla seems to be only part of Grindea's masterplan. It was some high priestess, that told Sizou about a vision of a big threat, which led to Sizou pushing Zhamla into that quest for power. And when Tessen offered herself as bearer of the curse, one of the sneaky Bishops immediately popped up to accept that offer. It's still not clear what exactly that masterplan is. It's not even clear if those Bishops really belong to Grindea or if they act on their own, pretending to represent Grindea to manipulate the god-fearking folk (Catholic church much?). And if they do serve her, then why do they seem so unsavory? Is the Goddess not the benevolent being the statues depict her as? So, yeah, there is still more to be revealed.

    Those are just some thoughts as to what exactly this Trial is about. I think it's pretty simple, the Trial of the Goddess is the Arcade Mode. In a sense at least. Similar to Arcade Mode, the challenger has to ascend a mountain and best all the threats and monsters it has to offer to reach the peak. Mt. Bloom was called Goddess Peak back then, after all. And that would also explain why the Trick Phasing guys weren't allowed to modify most of the rooms with the statues, as those are part of the trial. The flashback with Zhamla's dreams hints towards it as well since he is ascending a mountain, fights monsters, which goes on and on until he dies and wakes up - the same thing happens when you die in Arcade Mode: you "wake up" in Arcadia again.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    Jargalo likes this.
  9. Own

    Own Moderator

    It seems like a lot of people aren't getting that he didn't just go mad and be a villain. It's like they forgot what Gaantlet did to Winter in just the previous temple alone, warping his mind and controlling him. In the battle you see Zhamla equipped with and using Amalet and Gaantlet alike. Those reading the story noticed Zhamla started acting odd when the crown was put on him, he didn't care about collecting before then. Those who paid exceptionally close attention noticed this:


    Winter wasn't a villain, Zhamla isn't a villain. Zhamla's overdosing on manipulative artifacts. :p
    Jargalo likes this.
  10. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    I didn't say "he is", I said "he has become". I actually redid the battle before posting to record it for exactly that screenshot, but only to see if Bag was among those. The thought crossed my mind that his will has to be very strong to be able to resist all those evil artifacts for so long. But in the end, it didn't matter and he has become that villain everyone was talking about. So don't worry, I didn't forget to take that into consideration ;)
  11. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    So, with all this insanity stuff and higher plan, I think that the main villain are the Artifacts themselves. I don't know if Grindea is behind this, but her teachings are driving people into collecting, and collecting is driving them into eventually getting the Artifacts. The Artifacts have power to control people's hearts for their own goal. When Amalet awakens, he says something like "The time is night, for Artifacts to rule the world". That pretty much sums it up. The Artifacts want to rule mankind, so they come up with the collecting stuff as a trap. They can't act for themselves, so they are using people as tools, while it might seem the other way around.

    The Human Card might be important here too. Maybe it's an ultimate catalyst to enchant an Artifact into independent being? Also, there's another interesting thing (just adding lore to gameplay elements): elite monsters. Stronger monsters have higher chance to drop a card. It might be the same with humans - if a human gets strong enough, it becomes "elite" and can actually drop the card. So it's also on Artifacts benefit to create strong humans, as they are the ones who want the Human Card.

    Now, an ending plot-twist prediction: Zhamla is consistently portrayed as an ultimate villain and in the end, he will eventually get resurrected. We will be forced to kill him, which will make him drop the Human Card (since he is Elite Human by now), which will create some ultimate Artifact, which will then be the true final boss of the game.
  12. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    That... actually sounds very plausible. I especially like that "other way round" part, as the way Bag and Amalet talk to each other about who is the owner and who the slave speaks for that.

    About the Elite-Humans, I think I mentioned somewhere that Zhamla could be collecting strong Collectors, but I don't think I viewed them as elite-humans before. Also an interesting thought.
  13. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    Oh, there is actually something we overlooked, namely that we don't know if the artifacts were even evil before Zhamla put them on. In fact, all the artifacts we meet in Tai Ming are friendly, naive and dreaming of heroic adventures. Shiidu is even so drastic that she refuses to fight completely. Who knows if it wasn't Zhamla's madness and mania that made Amalet, Gaan'tlet and the others evil in the first place, by using them for evil purposes.

    I also wonder if it's a coniscedence that Bag and Crown are called by their item names, while the others have actual names (even though they're puns to the object names). But it's probably something without reason, where I'm trying to search for some sense again. :D
  14. Brom

    Brom Green Slime

    Anyone have an idea what Faita's father and the Priestess are referencing when they talk about 'the one that got away'? Is it one of Zhamla's artefacts? Also, how did Zhamla get a hold of Amalet? I thought GUN-D4M never actually got to fight against him.
  15. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    The better question is, if he was in possession of Amalet, why it is later found in Flying Fortress? We battle him after the fall of Flying Fortress, so it doesn't make sense actually...
  16. Brom

    Brom Green Slime

    Well that's plausible, actually - it might have been retrieved after Zhamla's demise and hidden within the Flying Fortress.
  17. Own

    Own Moderator

    Going by memory, they sealed Amalet away with 'the rest of our horrific inventions', something along those lines.

    I believe the timeline is:

    Zhamla doesn't want to be a Collector.
    Zhamla is given a crown by his friend. This does nothing.
    Zhamla is bullied into being a Collector.
    Tessen wants you to go find the crown she hid when she was young. You dig up the crown... but it doesn't really look like the one she gave Zhamla as a child.
    Zhamla wears the crown and gets an immediate adjustment of personality.
    Zhamla goes around collecting various artifacts and all the cards.
    Zhamla comes home. Disaster.
    Zhamla leaves to hunt his final card.
    Machines are made to combat Zhamla. He destroys them. (He might not actually have Amalet at this point. They may have put Amalet in Gundam to fight him, he won and claimed Amalet?)
    Zhamla is tempted home to rescue Tessen, who he believes to be in trouble. It's a trap.
    You arrive. The priests cast a sealing spell on Zhamla.
    Zhamla is stripped of his artifacts and banished or seal somewhere in the world. He's not dead.
    Five are captured and scattered around the world in heavily protected areas. This is where Amalet is locked in the Flying Fortress. (How did Gaantlet get in the Season Temple, though...?)
    One escapes...


    If my theory is right, Bag had aspirations to get the gang back together long before your mom got roasted. So whatever he's up to, it's possibly not about revival. It could be they have nothing to do with reviving anything. So what does Bag want to do?

    A) He wants to break the seal on Zhamla to complete the original mission. Human card!
    B) He wants to break the seal on Zhamla because he knows Zhamla isn't evil, Bag was with Zhamla before Zhamla got the crown along with Braazlet.
    Or C) has he forgotten his childhood? We've seen from Gaantlet and Ivy that the artifacts have trouble remembering their youth a thousand years ago. It could be he honestly doesn't remember any of it, or the sealing spell sealed all their memories and stumbling across Zhamla's sword in the dragon cave was a huge coinidence.

    It seems extremely suspicious that the five artifacts that were with Zhamla are coincidentally the exact five needed to ressurect someone. Especially since there was shown to be nothing special or sinister about Braazlet. We also know there are more than just these six artifacts in the world, Marino talks about his family's collection and Ivy shows off hers. There's also Shiidu, who has nothing to do with ressurection.

    Or maybe there's a legend that the five artifacts can ressurect someone... but Bag has forgotten that the only person they can 'ressurect' is their owner, sealed wherever he is.
    Jargalo likes this.
  18. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    That has to be Bag.
  19. res7less

    res7less Jumpkin

    I agree with that "resurrection" part, as Dad knows everything he knows from Bag, so he could have easily lied about it. He might have just wanted to give Dad a motivation to continue collecting all those after Charlotte's death, so option B seems the most sensible to me. I always thought it weird, that Dad blames himself for Charlotte's death, even though it was Bag, who pushed him into trying to collect the blade. Ugh, so hard to imagine Bag as the schemer he is as he is a very likeable character. But if B is correct, then he might be doing it for a good cause. I'm sure he didn't mean for Charlotte to die.

    And about the Artifact's memory: Since Zhamla grabbed the player during the Spell of Sealing and his sleeves are as large as the grand canyon, old Bag could have just hopped out before the Spell of Sealing hit, which is why he kept his memory and wasn't among the five artifacts shown in the picture. Although it's kind of weird that Gaan'tlet was hit by the spell too, even though Zhamla was holding the player with it.

    Edit: Funny thought: Dad is also an artifact, as he is called by his purpose :D
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  20. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    In the end, he was the one who pulled the blade, so...

    Btw, Zhamla's sword seems to have green hilt, while the one in the cave has blue.

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