[**MORE** UPDATED] [SUGGESTIONS] Bow Improvements

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by Chaldo, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. Chaldo

    Chaldo Rabby

    While I like the new update and it's support for the bow, I think it needs improvement because it's a little lacking. As you progress through the story, the bow can be upgraded, but the only difference I have noticed is a damage increase.

    (EVEN NEWER)
    Upgradeable Bow Parts
    (Chris)
    Instead of adding different bows or an entire skill tree dedicated to the bow, it could have a multitude of upgradeable and swappable parts that are either crafted or purchased.
    ■ The ability to upgrade the bow's fletching which increases it's projectile's speed (Chris)
    ■ The ability to upgrade the range of the bow via the bowstring (Chris)
    The ability to upgrade the damage of the bow via the arrowhead (Chris)
    ■ The ability to upgrade the bow in a way that increases the drop chance of enemies items (Chris)
    ■ The ability to upgrade the bow's rate of fire via a mechanical bowstring that automatically shoots at high speeds (Chaldo)
    The ability to upgrade its piercing via the arrowhead (Chaldo)
    The ability to have damage over time via barbed arrows that stick in the enemy (Chaldo)
    A light attachment that momentarily stuns enemies that come too close to the player (Chaldo)
    A red dot sight attachment that shows you where the arrow will go (Chaldo)
    A weapon attachment (like a bayonet) that allows the player to deal melee damage to enemies as well as shoot them (Chaldo)
    A shield attachment that allows blocking while shooting (Chaldo)
    A second (or more) quiver upgrade(s) to have more arrows (Chaldo)

    (NEW)
    Rather Than Making the Bow It's Own Class (Different Bows) (Chris)
    Instead of having skills for the bow in order to make it viable, create area specific craftable/obtainable (from enemies) bow weapons that would replace/be used alongside your current bow that do special things. Depending on how great/what type of effect the bow creates the damage would scale with the current bow upgrades you can buy while some are stronger, weaker, and do no damage, but have a special effect.
    Pumpkin Wooks
    A haunted bow that has arrows that either scares or aggros enemies (50%-50%) (Chaldo)
    ■ A helloweed bow that uses vine-wrapped arrows ito stuns enemies by wrapping them up in the vines (like the helloweed) (Chaldo)
    Flying Fortress
    A bow that fires lasers (Chris)
    ■ A bow that shoots the blue homing shots (similar to Amalet) (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that creates the purple vortex of the guardian when it's arrows land, give a barrier to a nearby ally, or hit off of 2 or 3 walls (dependant on charge level) to create a laser wall (all toggleable) (Chaldo)
    Seasonne
    An ice bow that shoots ice-coated arrows that freezes enemies (Chris)
    ■ A bow that shoots ice spikes (similar to the ice-slimes attack) that pierce through a lot of enemies (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that shoots golden arrows at the enemy which makes them drop their money (Chaldo)
    Temple of Seasons
    ■ A bow that creates tornadoes as it flies which disorients and throws certain enemies around (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that creates ice on the floor as it flies through enemies, and it slows enemies on the ice while freezing ones who are penetrated by the arrow (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that creates a circle of thorns where it lands that traps/damages enemies (Chaldo)
    ***Maybe it could be one bow that is affected by the last season orb used while it is on a hotkey, and you can craft multiple bows (Chaldo)
    Mt. Bloom
    ■ A bow that uses the same (magic?) as spinsects that allows it's arrows to bounce off of walls at high speeds (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow whose arrows create field of special mushrooms that disorient enemies (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that has the same mechanisms as fire shroomies and it's arrows spread fire spores around the room which set fire to enemies/the ground (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow whose arrows leak acid (different color from larvacid acd) over the ground that it flies over that deals damage over time to enemies (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow whose arrows are tipped with gas bombs that suffocate enemies (Chaldo)
    Tai Ming
    ■ A bow that shoots arrows into the ground which upturn unto the enemy (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that shoots arrows high into the sky that "ground pound" dealing aoe damage with a shockwave effect (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow that shoots arrows infused with the souls of Echoes of Madness which will teleport the enemy it hits to a random location nearby (Chaldo)
    ■ A bow with a one-use arrow that you have to pick up afterwards because it has a monkey hanging onto it which throws things into the air as it passes them (Chaldo)

    If The Bow Had a Class Dedicated to It

    Skills
    After a bit of testing, I have found that the bow doesn't have a piercing effect which makes it incredibly ineffective against large groups of enemies, and it only seems to kill more than one enemy if they are in a tightly packed space. A chargeable bow skill which would allow you to shoot multiple arrows at once in a cone in front of you which would only consume 1 arrow, but it would use energy. It would be similar to blade fury, but with arrows and range. The higher the charge level, the higher the damage output.

    Another skill that the bow could have is a chargeable explosive arrow that shoots a bomb-tipped arrow, and it creates an explosion where it hits, and it would be larger and do more damage depending on which charge you used. This would also only consume 1 arrow, but use energy.

    The bow could also have an ability where it acts as a gatling gun. For example, the bronze charge would shoot 5 arrows, the silver charge would shoot 10, and the gold charge would shoot all of your arrows, and it would shoot them at a high speed. This skill would be used to shoot bursts of damage, and it has no use of energy because it burns through your arrows.

    For an area of effect skill, the bow could shoot out two arrows, one arrow in front of you and one in the back, when you don't charge the skill, and for the bronze charge it would be four arrows shot out around you, silver would be six, and gold would be eight. That or every charge is 8 arrows completely surrounding you that shoot out and the charge just determines the damage output. The bow would only consume 1 arrow for each charge, but the energy used would increase

    The final bow skill that I could come up with would be a sort of homing arrow where an arrow is shot and it automatically locks onto a target and goes through it doing damage. For no charge it would target and go through two enemies, for bronze charge it would go through three, for silver charge four, and for gold charge it would target and go through and damage five enemies.

    Items
    I believe the only item that affects bows in the game is the "Archer's Apple", and it increases your bow damage. I don't think it's a terribly balanced item, but since all it does is increase critical damage and bow damage if you want to use it you have to sacrifice a lot of defense in the form of a better hat. Although it may be intentional, it could be better to either add more archer-based items with better defense/special abilities or add talents that increase ranged damage to replace the "Archer's Apple" with more defense.

    Adding rings to increase ranged damage like the stronger/smarter rings etc.

    Special light armor that makes the character have faster movement speed since archers are traditionally agile with a lower defense.

    A special accessory that allows you to move at normal speed while charging your bow, and it would be usable with the light armor.

    Talents
    A talent that would increase ranged damage by 2% every level and have 5 levels.

    A talent that increases your movement speed by x% per talent level while charging your bow.

    A few talents that would give a chance to burn/chill enemies upon impact with flaming/frozen arrows.

    Gives a x% chance/is a permanent affect to pierce enemies.
    The arrow potion should get buffed more than +1 arrow when it has "Fine Taste" at max level
    Allows the player to pick up x% of arrows fired from the bow. (Em0_oticon)
    Allows the player to pick up x% of arrows that don't hit an enemy. (Chris)
    Allows the player to pick up x% of arrows that don't kill an enemy. (Chris)
    Conclusion
    The main reason I'm bringing this up is because I recently attempted a play-through of the game where I used my bow as my main focus of attack, and in general it doesn't work out well. On the negative side, in comparison to my friend who was using two-handed weapons, who did massive damage to bosses and killed huge groups of enemies with ease, I do minimal damage to bosses and can barely kill 1 enemy with 2 arrows before my friend kills everything in the room in 1 hit. This is why I think the bow needs a serious upgrade of skills, talents, and items.On the positive side however, I feel like the amount of arrows you get is good with the "Archer Potion", "Fine Taste", "Alchemist", and "Ammo Scavenge" you are able to maintain a steady supply of arrows at all times.
    Random Side Note
    In Evergrind City, Griddle, who is the man sitting down next to the park playing cards, should have a Hearthstone-like mini-game where you use the cards you have collected in the game for either money or fun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    funnypun and Macrollat like this.
  2. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

    Actually, it would be cool if you could win otherwise-unobtainable cards this way.
     
  3. Fast forward past the time months ago where I filled up one of the chats arguing against this, I might be slightly on board. lol. I still don't know how I feel about a ranged class, but some buffs may be useful? The main reason I say this is that I don't find the bow particularly useful. I haven't picked up mage yet. But I'm fairly accustomed to 2H melee. And as a melee user, I almost entirely forget that the bow exists. When I started playing the game and wanted to quickly do damage to enemies from afar, I'd use the bow because I was afraid of close combat. But then I switched to a charged Titan's Throw because it's stronger. (At full charge, it's technically more versatile). In the past I also occasionally used the bow against bosses. Again, moments came when I was too scared to get close. But then, when I "got gud", I ignored the bow because there was no need to use it; I did more damage slapping the boss with a sword. If I can benefit from perfect guards up close, there's no reason for me to stay too far away -- especially with high attack. I think I can say I'm a fairly decent player now. Not one of the pro's at all. Maybe not even "good". But still able to perform decently in SOG. And as such a melee player, the bow has become just about irrelevant to me.

    As for mage users, they're already accustomed to dealing damage from afar. So if I don't use arrows much, I imagine mages would use arrows even less.

    In the end, since I can make it without the bow, it doesn't really matter to me if the bow gets buffed or not. But the fact that I find the bow irrelevant made me think: What is the intention for the bow? If the intention is for the bow to be something used by players a reasonable amount of the time, some buffs of some sort may be in order. Of course, "reasonable" is an arbitrary term, but I'm assuming a "reasonable" amount of time does not include "nearly never". I almost always consider the current bow not to be an option. I would consider the bow an option in some circumstances if it was buffed. To put things in perspective: With the way the bow is now, I'd rather repeatedly P-guard and counter elite boars/bots than attempt to wear them down from afar with arrows -- even with infinite ammo. That even more if multiple elites are present.

    If the bow is intended to be a side tool, then maybe its damage and skills can be scaled according to "How much should this bow contribute to this person's damage against a boss/enemy %-wise?" That can be a time %scale, a damage %scale. Some combination. idk. But maybe scaling in a similar fashion to that can move it into a more useful zone but not the too-OP zone? Maybe Chaldo would have a better idea on scaling. lol. He would have more numbers on how each version of the bow performs too.

    If the bow is intended to be a ranged class...well... I have no comments on that. lol. I don't feel like I desperately need one and I don't have any ideas for it...so yeah. Doesn't necessarily mean there shouldn't be a ranged class either. I'm just not concerned with it or pushing for it. haha.

    If bow damage does get noticeably high though, then measures would have to be taken concerning how much ammo a person would be given. Would they have to buy ammo in a certain bag? Would they get it from enemies by hitting/killing them? Would they get ammo by dabbing? All important questions, especially that last one. I don't think bow balancing is a major concern at this point in the game development, but I figured I'd spill some thoughts out for consideration.
     
  4. totally agree on this, i try to use the bow but I end up forcing myself and it not working. I mean it was more useful before when it was weak and spammy, because I could just throw it in without thinking. So to make the bow better, we could add:
    - A talent to increase quiver size by 3 5 times (15 total)
    - A talent that increasea arrow pick up range
    - Specialized arrows that are Imbued with elements (fire has better damage, ice chills/freezes, earth could grow a plant on hit and electric jumps between enemies for AoE)
    - Items/people that give permanent upgrades (you could meet a blacksmith who sharpens arrows so they pierce)
     
  5. Chaldo

    Chaldo Rabby

    You really don't need anything to increase the quiver's size because the arrow potion + the potion refill rate talent + the potion effect talent = practically impossible to run out of arrows. I'm not against the idea, but I don't think it's as necessary compared to the other improvements.
     
  6. Chaldo, while that may be the case now (and there are those who would disagree) if there will be more for a ranger class it would likely prove nessecary
     
  7. Frigid

    Frigid Green Slime

    Origin Story
    Playing through the game with a few friends today, we came to the conclusion that while there's a lot of variance in magic and a fair bit of variance in melee, there's not much in the way of mixing them, or any method of playing something aside from a supporter outside of that. When one of my friends learned that there was a bow, he asked me if archery would be his calling. I had to give him the sad news that there weren't any skills for archery, and very little in the way of talents.

    Problem
    A full four player party will have some inherent overlap in player roles, and with a fork of combat not being fully explored, there is untapped potential to be exploited.

    Solution
    Add a section of skills (and possibly talents) specific to archery. It could work as a third wing for melee skills, treated more like a physical tree with melee/ranged options, or as a section of its own, possibly scaling with physical attack and the currently unlocked bow. There are plenty of different options for archery skills, pulling from plenty of areas for inspiration, while still being capable of being balanced for single player, multiplayer, and arcade.

    Proposal
    Below are a few quickly brainstormed skills and talents that could push the concept of archery into its own potential class.
    Skills​
    • Piercing Shot - Charge a shot from your bow piercing through up to (2, 3, 4, 5) enemies, dealing (25,20,15,10)% less damage to each enemy following the first.
    • Multi Shot - Shoot multiple (2, 3, 4, 5) arrows from your bow at once, dealing (80, 90, 100, 110)% damage with each arrow. The angels of the arrows always average out to be the direction the player is facing.
    • Pinning Shot - Launch a heavy arrow from your bow, stunning the first enemy hit, and dragging it back, dealing damage to the next (1, 2, 3, 4) enemies behind it, with damage decreasing by (15, 25, 35, 45)% as it gets dragged through each succeeding enemy.
    • Flaming Shot - Shoot a blazing arrow from your bow, dealing (5, 10, 15, 20)% more damage, with a (50, 65, 80, 100)% chance of setting your target ablaze for (2, 3, 4, 5) seconds, dealing additional damage over time.
    • Chilling Shot - Shoot a frozen arrow from your bow, dealing (10, 15, 20, 25)% more damage, with a (50, 65, 80, 100)% chance of chilling and slowing your target for (2, 3, 4, 5) seconds.
    Talents​
    Now, I recognize that Quickshot and Ammo Scavenger are already in the game, but obviously a full class would need more talents than just two, right?
    • Ammo Conservation - Shots you take from your bow have a 5% chance per Talent Level of not consuming an arrow. Max 5
    • Splinters - Enemies hit by your arrows have a 25% chance (+25% per extra Talent Level) of causing enemies to bleed for 25% of the initial damage over 2 seconds. Max 3
    • Armor Piercing - Enemies damaged by your arrows have their defense reduced by 10% (+5% per extra Talent Level) for 5 seconds. Max 5
    • Mystic Arrows - Increases damage dealt by your arrows by 5% of your MATK per level. Max 5
    • Last Shot - The last arrow in your quiver does an extra 100% damage per talent level. Max 3
    These are just some ideas I came up with while playing, and would love any feedback on what others would imagine could make for an archery class. I was going to attempt to come up with a way to mix the flaming/chilling shots with the piercing/multi/pinning to add a little expression to each shot. I suppose the flaming or chilling could be talents, but I'd love some opinions.
     
  8. KoBeWi

    KoBeWi Jumpkin

  9. Frigid

    Frigid Green Slime

    Well, I did a Google search and searched the forums trying to make sure I wasn't original, and I came up blank. My bad. Is there a way for me to delete this?
     
  10. MrChocodemon

    MrChocodemon Handsome Moderator

    I'd just merge it with one of the other threads. That way your post doesn't just vanish.
     
  11. Add the Bow Pins to Story Mode as Equipment-based Effects

    As anyone who has played Arcade Mode as of the date of posting surely knows, utilising the new pins system, the bow has recieved various interesting boosts to it's utility and effectiveness.
    However, in story mode, the more popular of the two modes and the one in which more people will be using the bow consistently throughout their game, it still only has the improvements it had as of the creation of this thread in 2018.

    The New Context Applied by Arcade

    As of 2020, Arcade Mode now has semirandomised, temporary buffs called Pins with a variety of effects, including a small but meaningful few affecting the bow and arrow. They are as follows (data extracted from the wiki page here):

    Arrows now cast Ice Nova on hit

    • Casts an uncharged, Level 1 Ice Nova
    • Base damage is 25% of Hybrid ATK
    • Benefits from CSPD, Blue Slime Card and Crippling Blast Talent
    Arrows now cast Meteor on hit
    • Casts an uncharged, Level 1 Meteor
    • Base damage is 100% of Hybrid ATK
    Arrows now cast Spirit Slash on hit
    • Casts an uncharged, Level 1 Spirit Slash
    • Uses 40% of Hybrid ATK as damage stat
    Firing an Arrow increases the damage of your next Basic Attack
    • Adds +200% to the Damage Modifier of the next Basic Attack
    Arrow damage fill Reaper's Blade incredibly fast
    • Reaper's Blade adds 500% of arrow damage to its counter
    If an Arrow hits a Full HP Enemy, Reaper's Blade will be cast
    • Casts Reaper's Blade
    Continuation of Context
    As can be see from the above data, these buffs allow the bow to serve as crowd control, as a burst tactic, as a utilitarian item to increase your basic attack, etc, and would be easily fit into story mode as perks, or unique equipment effects (such as on armour, or a headpiece, or a weapon)

    The Requisite Changes
    As implied above, these would be best implemented as unique equipment effects. However, in my opinion, some of them should have their effects slightly edited for the purposes of story mode class cohesion and, due to the sidearm nature of the bow in SoG, story mode longevity. These modifications are as follows:
    Universal Changes
    Charge Levels

    Make the charge level scale with level of your skill. Using Ice Nova as an example:
    At no investment, arrows will cast uncharged ice nova.
    At silver investment, they will cast bronze level ice nova
    At gold investment they will cast silver charge ice nova,
    At maxed investment, they will cast gold charge ice nova

    This change would affect Ice Nova, Meteor, Spirit Slash, and any future additions with the same mechanics

    Derived Damage
    Make the stat the arrow-skill derives damage from specific to the skill in question,
    ATK for Spirit Slash
    MATK for Ice Nova and Meteor,
    Etc, logically following for future additions.

    In Arcade, it makes sense to make the skill universally useful due to the random nature of pins, but it makes more sense in Story Mode to be tailored to the class in question.

    The Specific Suggestions
    As would logically follow from the two above sections, the buffs in question should be applied to equipment found in dungeons (Potentially, retroactively, to keep the bow consistent throughout the game)
    A few conceptual examples would be
    • A wand item which gives the Ice Nova effect (Allowing for more ranged crowd control with 1H MA)
    • A 2H scythe melee weapon that gives one of the two reaper's blade effects
    • An equipment piece, such as a hood, which gives the other of the two reaper's blade effects
    • A 2H staff which gives the meteor effect (For higher ranged damaged with 2H MA)
    • A 1H sword which gives the Spirit Slash effect (Allowing for more ranged crowd control with 1H)
    • An equipment piece, such as footwear or armour, giving the basic attack damage modifier (Perhaps lowerering defense) (Due to the purely numerical nature of this modifier, it could be placed on multiple equipments pieces throughout the game.)
    Miscellaneous Considerations
    Having these equipment pieces modify the graphics of the arrows fired would give some visual flair to the equipment which makes them feel distinct beyond just gameplay benefits, such as making the Ice Nova arrows frozen, the Meteor ones having a meteor-styled arrowhead and flame trail, and the Reaper's Blade modifiers having a skull on the arrowhead. These, however, are not necessary changes, and might add some undue burden on the art side.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2022

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