A sequence before the start of the game, familiarizing the player with the combat system.

[Own]

Right now when you start the game, if you're itching to get into a bit of action and see what the game is about, you have to go through about 5+ minutes of cutscenes and walking around town before you get to an enemy. When you do, it's slimes and rabbits and it seems all you can do is use your sword.

I advise giving the player, particularly those playing the demo, a small taste of what's to come the instant they start a new save file.

Have the player start on a circular arena in the middle of a void, the edges of the screen waving like the Cursed Pumpkin Woods. They're put in an immediate battle against a strange, shadowy figure / blob with a randomized loadout.

Either a 1-handed sword made of pure white, or a 2-handed sword made of pure light. They get one random weapon skill from the weapon they start with. They also get 2 random elemental spells? Or one random spell from each element. Win or lose, the player wakes up in their room and the game progresses as normal, no weapon and no skills.

With this players can get a feel for what's to come when they leave town and start leveling up, and since each player starts with a random loadout they get to have a brief feel for a variety of skills to see which skill appealed to them in the dream fight.

Does this seem like a good idea?

 

[MrChocodemon]

So a dream sequence with 1 Bronzepoint randomly spent and a weapon?
Sounds cool.
I bet that it isn't necessary as you either care for the story and are ok with the set up, or don't care and can skip it, BUT i think giving the player a small taste of Gameplay right away is always nice.

And do you make it so it is different from slimes and rabbys but not so hard, that it is demotivating? Do you give it any story relevance?
I mean it could be made like Demon's Souls where you start against an enemy and you have to die to advance the plot. If you win however, you get a little nice extra and have to die anyway. And the bonus is some "money/souls"

 

[Own]

So a dream sequence with 1 Bronzepoint randomly spent and a weapon?

1 weapon skill and 2 random elemental skills, or 1 weapon skill and 1 random elemental skill from each element. Just something to give the player a taste of what each field has to offer straight off the bat, so that when they do level up they have some idea of where they want to go.

 

[MrChocodemon]

But when you don't know the game and play with an Xbox Controller you just see 4 items/skills on screen.
So you want:
- Weapon
- Shield
- 1 Weapon Skill
- 2-4 elemental skills
So 5-7 Elements, but the average player can only up to 4 on screen...
I think it wouldn't be very clear if you give the players to many options right of the start.

 

[Teddy]

I do get the sentiment of wanting to introduce players to the actual game play in the demo. I remember Fez doing this, by shuffling the whole world around to provide a short tutorial which introduced concepts much, much faster than in the actual game (and entirely skipped all exposition). The slow pace of Fez far eclipses our five minute RPG-parody beginning, but even so, a quick taste of the combat might be nice in our game as well.

Personally, I don't like giving players too many options right off the bat. I also dislike them being randomized, as it would give vastly different experiences, and could create combinations that don't convey the skill system very well. As Chocodemon points out, having more than two skills would create bonus confusion for those playing with a gamepad.

I have been toying with the idea of speeding up the introduction of the demo and basically turning it into your dad giving you both the sword and the shield, and telling you to run out of the village. This will let them partake in the action faster, and in the intended way, but there's a problem with doing this as well, which is that those who convert from the demo will not get to experience the actual beginning.

This is one of those cases where some magic data would be awesome to have. How many quit the demo before getting the sword? How many quit before killing an enemy? If 25 % of all players who download the demo don't reach the actual combat, then that's obviously a problem (assuming that those people wouldn't have quit either way). Additionally, there is always a risk that when doing changes for a particular group, in this case very impatient players (of which there are quite a few), we might make the experience worse for everyone else.

TL;DR: We're aware that you must play for a few minutes before being able to smash things, but since we don't know the extent of player dissatisfaction we don't want to be chasing ghosts and making unnecessary changes.

 

[GarlicJelly]

Wouldn't there have been atleast one person complaining on the forum that the intro is taking "forever"? I've stopped reading all the first impressions and from memory I can't recall anyone saying that the 5 min intro wasn't worth their time. Maybe people that are impatient to play those 5 minutes before the game actually starts don't have enough patients to load up this website? Who knows.

Anyways I like the idea of a dream fight. Only problem is that if there is a cool weapon made of light you'll have to give it to me in the story later on.

 

[Own]

Personally, I don't like giving players too many options right off the bat. I also dislike them being randomized, as it would give vastly different experiences, and could create combinations that don't convey the skill system very well. As Chocodemon points out, having more than two skills would create bonus confusion for those playing with a gamepad.

In my mind, the fight wouldn't last long enough for the lack of synergy in the skills to matter. It would be a small taste, the player experimentally fighting something in a small area and pressing buttons to see what does what.

"Holy crap! Did I just summon a meteor down from the sky / spew bugs from my hand / summon up an adorable cloud?" is a reaction I see a lot of people have when they pick their first skill. Letting them see a slice of the depth of the game upfront could be handy. But, right, if this were added then 1 weapon skill and 1 magic skill might be best.

This is one of those cases where some magic data would be awesome to have. How many quit the demo before getting the sword? How many quit before killing an enemy? If 25 % of all players who download the demo don't reach the actual combat, then that's obviously a problem (assuming that those people wouldn't have quit either way). Additionally, there is always a risk that when doing changes for a particular group, in this case very impatient players (of which there are quite a few), we might make the experience worse for everyone else.

You'd have this magic data if you put a demo up on Steam with 'cheevs or the Steam API something, you know. It lets you analyze the average playtime, % of players that have gotten however far and stuff like that. Guess you'll have it once you guys launch officially?

Anyways I like the idea of a dream fight. Only problem is that if there is a cool weapon made of light you'll have to give it to me in the story later on.

I mainly suggested a 'sword of light' because of how potentially easy it would be to draw and animate, being pure white. Just to ensure no great amount of resources went into the introductory combat dream.

 

[Teddy]

You'd have this magic data if you put a demo up on Steam with 'cheevs or the Steam API something, you know. It lets you analyze the average playtime, % of players that have gotten however far and stuff like that. Guess you'll have it once you guys launch officially?

Using the Steam API to gather those statistics is a great idea! And yeah, we can't have a demo there until we are sold through Steam (I think Early Access games can have demos as well). Better late than never, though!

 

[KoBeWi]

Engaging player in battle without story elements is something Arcade Mode does, but without epic enemies on start.

The whole idea of dream battle reminds me of a cutscene from Aquaria, where near the beginning of the game, player is shown a 'vision of future', being thrown in a place full of enemies, with a mid-game character.

Such event in SoG could be good for teasing players, but like after getting the first card in arena (it's the end of demo, is it?). Character suddenly appears in some mysterious dungeon with few skills and mid-game eq, after one/two fighting rooms, there is some plot-important scene, but then hero wakes up on the arena without spoiling, leaving the player wanting to see what happens there.

 

[Yuuki]

Sry i didnt read all of thread. But seriously what kind of gamer would the person be that minds 5+ minutes of pure dialog in the begining. it isnt like this is FF or especily Persona where you have to wait hours before actual gameplay.

People these days.....

EDIT:
if this has to happen then why not expanding the idea to Secret of Evermore standarts. Let the dream fail able but if you succsessfull absolve it then you may get an reward for it in the later game. Maybe a slightly op mid game Weapon or so.

 

[Own]

Sry i didnt read all of thread. But seriously what kind of gamer would the person be that minds 5+ minutes of pure dialog in the begining. it isnt like this is FF or especily Persona where you have to wait hours before actual gameplay.

The type of gamer that is going through demos to see if a game appeals to them.

Also:

Final Fantasy 2 - Battle as soon as you start the game, everyone dies.
Final Fantasy 4 - Series of automated battles shown throughout the intro cutscenes showing off some cool effects.
Final Fantasy 7 - Immediately you're thrust into battle against a couple of mooks at the train station.
Final Fantasy 9 - Quickly you're put into battle against your boss.

I haven't played newer FFs, but if they take hours to start... damn.

 

[MrChocodemon]

I haven't played newer FFs, but if they take hours to start... damn.

I didn't play it but many people claim that the FF13 Tutorial took around 30 hours. The battle at the start wouldn't help me through this one xD

Oh god, i'm trying to respond like 30 minutes and keep deleting my trys as i'm never satisfied with the way i respond.

Response no.7
I think the 5 minutes, that is the intro now, are somewhat uneventful, but perfectly manage to introduce the player, not only to the world, but also to the whole fighting/loot/quest/menu/control systems. To start with a dream sequense just seems like it takes a lot of work to make a 5 minute start into a 2 minute start.

What about making a demo someday that is somewhat a prequel for the game? I just thought about demos, that are not cut out from the main game, but totally a new thing and still have the same spirit. (stanley parable)
Imagine the player trainig with Jonathan, so you can become the ultimate collector someday, but you have to go home and then lend Jonathan your sword, so he can train a little more. And now he has a cold, because you shouldn't train outside, at night, totally sweaty.
So a demo that teaches much, but also explains, why you don't start with sword or shield.

 

[GarlicJelly]

What about us that don't play the demo but the full version? Why don't we get to beat Jonathan in a slime hunting contest or a race home to have dinner?

 

[MrChocodemon]

What about us that don't play the demo but the full version? Why don't we get to beat Jonathan in a slime hunting contest or a race home to have dinner?

Ask him when he's feeling better. He needs some training after lying bed for a week.

But seriously? Because I hate(really personal) when i have to play something that i'm going to play anyway and i don't like being "foreshadowed". Its like spoiling.
I'd rather take a dream sequence than the first five minutes of the game copied or being spoiled in any way.
(also you can play the demo if you want, it's free)

 

[GarlicJelly]

Yeah, spoiling the game just because there is no action within the first 5 seconds of the game is not something anyone can justify. I really like the idea of playing the day before the full game starts. Maybe that could be an optional thing that is only asked the first time you create your character and it can then be found in the menu?