Adaptable doesn't make sense as a talent

[Buffalo Bell]

Two points in Strength and two points in Intelligence accomplishes the same thing as four points in Adaptable.

You're basically always getting less benefit than if you took Strength or Intellegence based on what stat you have more of or what stat benefits you more.

Someone who specs into raw ATK or MATK has better multiplicative scaling when they pair it with ASPD or CSPD. Crit is the only true hybrid stat.

Adaptable should offer you either better numbers, or something totally unique. An example of something unique would be % of your MATK added to your ATK and vise versa (I think this is the most flavorful based on the name.) Another example would be giving raw stats instead of percentage increases. Another option would be to keep the percents at 1% and make the stats "increased damage with attacks" and "increased damage with spells" so that they would scale with flat stats and percent increased stats, making them better than percent increased stats.

 

[Own]

Two points in Strength and two points in Intelligence accomplishes the same thing as four points in Adaptable.

Scenario 1: You have 4 points. You put all 4 into Adaptable and gain +4% ATK, +4% MATK.

Scenario 2: You have 4 points. You put 2 into Strength for +4% ATK, you put 2 into Intelligence for +4% MATK.

How are either one of these 'less benefit' than the other? Same number of point investment, same gain in the end.

I imagine Adaptable exists because, if you want to max both Strength and Intelligence, you can continue putting points into Adaptable for an extra +5% ATK and +5% MATK.

 

[Buffalo Bell]

In that case you're spending 15 whole talent points, where half of them don't have relevant interactions with the other half (ATK gets no benefit from MATK and vise versa) and each half is only relevant to itself additively. You could take ATK+ASPD+CRIT or MATK+CSPD+CRIT for 15pt and get the advantage of much better scaling.

Even if there were a situation where someone would want to take every point in Strength, Intellegence, and Adaptable, Adaptable still doesn't become relevant until the other two talents are maxed out. It's bad talent design for a talent to just offer more of what other talents already offer, it needs an identity that makes it worth taking on its own.

 

[Own]

Adaptable is good if you want to evenly gain damage for both, instead of throwing in with one or the other.

For example, I use both weapon skills and spells. Having both boosted is good for me. Adaptable is only 'useless' if you're going pure-melee or pure-magic, and even then +5% MATK or +5% ATK for 5 talent orbs still isn't a bad deal if you're wanting absolute maximum damage.

 

[Buffalo Bell]

The problem is that you're going to be doing more damage with either spells or weapons, meaning Strength or Intelligence are always going to be better choices. Even in the ideal situation where it is a perfect 50-50 split there is still the option of speccing into Strength and Intelligence evenly, which means Adaptable really only establishes an identity after two other talents are maxed out.

 

[MrChocodemon]

Imagine this:
You'r a warrior, a wo/man of strength, a fearless beserk and ruthless fighter with a flaming sword. But what is this? The burning weapon talent uses MATK as DMG value?
What if you focus on ATK and spend 8 points 4 in strength and 4 in Adaptable?
You'd get the strength you're longing for and also make your flaming weapon more awesome.

I can understand this concern of yours, but i can see the benefits of this Talent.
Also this increase, in all the cases, is in % so it becomes more beneficial the longer you play.

 

[GarlicJelly]

I think adaptable is an ok talent. I play a hybrid build but i try to aim for something like 75-25 or 80-20 with my attack and magic attack. Since I'm mostly doing damage with my Shadow Clones and normal attacks having a high ATK stat is nice but I'm also using the Cloud Strike and therefore I max out Adaptable after maxing out Strenght. This gives my normal attacks a high damage while still keeping the Cloud Strike's lightnings damage at a decent level. I'm pretty sure that the game isn't balanced enough so that an even 50-50 hybrid build would work as efficient as a pure build but I think the option of going hybrid should still be a thing and that there should be talents that can be identified as "hybrid talents".

What you're talking about @Buffalo Bell is the efficiency of the talent and you're basically saying that spending 3 points in Strenght and 3 points in Intelligence is a more efficient way of spending your points than spending 5 points in Adaptable.
Spending 6 points for +6% in both stats > Spending 5 points for +5% in both stats.
While this is true that still doesn't mean that Adaptable doesn't have its own identity. Just by looking at it you can tell that it's meant for hybrid builds and if you've got 5 points to spend you would probably spend them in Adaptable rather than splitting them up on Strenght and Intelligence even if those are more point efficient beyond 5 points.

 

[Buffalo Bell]

@MrChocodemon
Yeah, I was mistaken. I guess technically it could be relevant after maxing out only one other talent. I still think generally it's not going to be a preferable option, even in that case. Attack speed for example would scale your raw attack damage multiplicatively with % inc ATK and make you proc Burning Weapon more. Crit would scale you all around, and is multiplicative with the ATK scaling you've already taken. % ATK and MATK talents in general, so including Strength and Intellegence, are going to be weaker in a hybrid build because it had less ATK and less MATK than a specialized build.

@GoodStuff
What I'm trying to say is that Strength and Intelligence have to be in the game to allow people to spec into attacks or spells. Since Adaptable is half a point of Strength and half a point of Intellegence it kinda feels redundant. A hybrid build is at a disadvantage numbers wise, its attacks do less damage and it's spells do less damage. You don't even necessarily want to take Strength or Intellegence, because you have low stat values. The best thing for a hybrid build its crit because it double dips, and procs that synergise with the strategy. I think Adaptable should be 1.5%, but augment your ATK with MATK and vise versa, that would make it useful if you use attacks and spells, but probably unappealing to someone who just wants to max out one stat, this gives it a clear hybrid identity. Alternatively it could provide flat amounts of ATK and MATK, this also resonates with the mantra of "adaptable" as it would give attackers a relevant amount of spell damage and spell casters a relevant amount of attack damage, because % increases are obviously going to be less beneficial to someone who doesn't have that stat on their gear.

 

[GarlicJelly]

@GoodStuff
What I'm trying to say is that Strength and Intelligence have to be in the game to allow people to spec into attacks or spells. Since Adaptable is half a point of Strength and half a point of Intellegence it kinda feels redundant. A hybrid build is at a disadvantage numbers wise, its attacks do less damage and it's spells do less damage. You don't even necessarily want to take Strength or Intellegence, because you have low stat values. The best thing for a hybrid build its crit because it double dips, and procs that synergise with the strategy. I think Adaptable should be 1.5%, but augment your ATK with MATK and vise versa, that would make it useful if you use attacks and spells, but probably unappealing to someone who just wants to max out one stat, this gives it a clear hybrid identity. Alternatively it could provide flat amounts of ATK and MATK, this also resonates with the mantra of "adaptable" as it would give attackers a relevant amount of spell damage and spell casters a relevant amount of attack damage, because % increases are obviously going to be less beneficial to someone who doesn't have that stat on their gear.

Yes, you get half the stats from Strenght and half the stats from Intelligence but you still get 2% for 1 point. When you say that a hybrid build is at a disadvantage because it's attacks and spells will do less damage do you still consider that you might be using both at the same time so the numbers could come out around the same in the end? I mean if I'm using Insect Swarm and Shadow Clone and combine that with the talent that gives me EP back when I attack an enemy I'm going to have a sustained damage with both my attacks and my spell and to be honest I think the magic damage + the attack damage could exceed a full damage or a full magic build. The flat stat gain is only useful really early in the game and it won't scale well as the game progresses. Another thing with that is that it would almost be too good to pass up on if the flat gain is good because you can then combine that with Strenght or Intelligence to gain even more out of it. I think that flat stat gains should be kept on items and items only (yes, pets have some too but they don't count). If you're going for a hybrid build you need to farm some gear since the shops are not selling much items with MATK but I don't think that's a problem. I don't think that the hybrid build is something that you should get into right away since it is more complex than a standard melee or mage build. If you farm enough to craft your Laser Sword and then use items like the Purple Flower Headband (I'm too lazy to look up the real name) to boost both MATK and ATK you'll get a pretty good DPS build IMO.

 

[MrChocodemon]

Alternatively it could provide flat amounts of ATK and MATK, this also resonates with the mantra of "adaptable" as it would give attackers a relevant amount of spell damage and spell casters a relevant amount of attack damage, because % increases are obviously going to be less beneficial to someone who doesn't have that stat on their gear.

The flat stat gain is only useful really early in the game and it won't scale well as the game progresses. Another thing with that is that it would almost be too good to pass up on if the flat gain is good because you can then combine that with Strenght or Intelligence to gain even more out of it. I think that flat stat gains should be kept on items and items only (yes, pets have some too but they don't count). If you're going for a hybrid build you need to farm some gear since the shops are not selling much items with MATK but I don't think that's a problem. I don't think that the hybrid build is something that you should get into right away since it is more complex than a standard melee or mage build. If you farm enough to craft your Laser Sword and then use items like the Purple Flower Headband (I'm too lazy to look up the real name) to boost both MATK and ATK you'll get a pretty good DPS build IMO.

There is an unsolveable problem here. That is what "Adaptable" aims to Achieve. As we don't know what really was the though behind that, we can't just say: % are better, or flat values are better.

What if, even in the late game, i have a really low MATK, then % are still somewhat useless and if my base MATK levels with me as a player pretty fast, then % could be OP and flat values useless.

If i equip everything I own that gives MATK, I have 203 MATK. So % would gibe me 2-10 more MATK and that would be my magic build... that is still pretty low.

Sadly i don't have solution for that one, but i think the intention was just to make a Talent that is a lesser mix between "Intelligence" and "Strength"

 

[Buffalo Bell]

@Goodstuff:
Even a pure ATK build can use spells like Cloud Strike though. I often go pure ATK with Cloud Strike and a two handed weapon in arcade. I haven't ran the numbers but I think it would be pretty hard for a hybrid build to match the damage of an ATK build. The way I see it is that a hybrid build should be able to out DPS or at least match a melee build by going purely offensive in gear choices, melee should have better defensive choices that still give it good damage.

You say it is still a two percent increase, but that is irrelevant. If I have 200pt of ATK I get 4pt of stats out of 1pt of strength. If I have 100pt of ATK and 100pt of MATK I get 2pt of stats out of 1pt of Strength, Intellegence, or Adaptable. Even if I end up getting a higher combined total through efficient gear choices, like say 150 ATK and 120 MATK, I still benefit less from these talents.

 

[GarlicJelly]

Well IMO the balance between MATK and ATK is very in favour of ATK. With only the Laser Sword I can get a higher value of ATK than a fully equiped MATK character so the balance there is not what I would call ideal. IMO MATK should be an easier stat to increase so that your spells can do more damage and actually be more relevant in terms of % gains aswell. The less frequent attacks (spells) should have high damage while the very frequent attacks (just swinging your sword) should have a lower damage which means that ATK should never be greater than MATK if you're maxing out in either with gear. I think that when you find that balance the hybrid builds will be way closer in terms of damage to the pure builds.

 

[MrChocodemon]

Well IMO the balance between MATK and ATK is very in favour of ATK. With only the Laser Sword I can get a higher value of ATK than a fully equiped MATK character so the balance there is not what I would call ideal.

Wait a moment, iI have to farm a little and will come back to that.

 

[MrChocodemon]

So with NO Talents chosen. Respec'd. LV17 and just equipment.
Base ATK 84
Base + LaserSword 164
Base with complete equip going + ATK 204

Base MAKT 77
Base with complete equip going + MATK 222

So i would say, no, all equipement can give pretty high MATK boosts, like the witch hat and the Plasma Bracelts that give +30 MATK each (1 hat + 2 Bracelets = +90MATK > LaserSword)

 

[Buffalo Bell]

Armor: 7 ASPD
Weapon: 80 ATK
Headgear: 20 ATK
Total: 100 ATK + 7 ASPD

Armor: 10 MATK
Weapon: 25 MATK
Headgear: 65 MATK
Total: 100 MATK

So I'd say GoodStuff is actually right here. BUT I believe it is only this way because there aren't any top tier MATK weapons in the game yet. The Apprentice Rod is supposed to be on the same tier as the Squire Sword. The Rod has 40% of the Sword's ATK and 70% of the Swords ATK as MATK. A MATK weapon scaled to the same tier as the Laser Sword would have 30-35 ATK and 55-60 MATK. So if a Laser Sword alternative is added to the game you'd get 30-35 more MATK than ATK from gear. I think if this game ever reaches an end game state then MATK users will have more MATK than ATK users will have ATK. I think headgear is going to be primarily oriented toward DEF, MATK, and Crit based on what's already in the game.

 

[GarlicJelly]

So with NO Talents chosen. Respec'd. LV17 and just equipment.
Base ATK 84
Base + LaserSword 164
Base with complete equip going + ATK 204

Base MAKT 77
Base with complete equip going + MATK 222

So i would say, no, all equipement can give pretty high MATK boosts, like the witch hat and the Plasma Bracelts that give +30 MATK each (1 hat + 2 Bracelets = +90MATK > LaserSword)

Ok, so I was not 100% accurate with my statement there. The base value gap is what tricked me when I checked my stats. I checked and with full equipment for ATK and MATK there is a difference in flat stats of 35. However when I checked I logged on my main character which is level 51 so the base values are waaaaayy further apart. That said it's still a very small difference that still favours ATK since you can get attackspeed aswell to increase your damage output with the gear while full MATK ONLY give the player MATK. If you put attackspeed into the equation you would find out that the damage is better for ATK based characters even if the pure stats are higher values for MATK.

 

[MrChocodemon]

I go for Laser Sword + Crit +ASPD
Which amounts to ATK=193 + 44%Crit + 121%ASPD
And i think just looking at pure DPS, strentgh builds are better. But I don't think that the gap is not too big.

The Laser is far stronger than the Apprentice Rod, and i hope that with the next area update some of the bigger caves + the Ruby Rod will come available.
When you use /equip you can get the Ruby Rod and the steel sword, which are both not available any other way.
It has +40 MATK which nowhere near the +80ATK of the Laser Sword, but hopefully available soon.

(You also get the Steel Sword with /equip, which has +60ATK)

 

[Buffalo Bell]

Actually I messed up my calculations, I completely forgot about accessories which definitely favor magical users currently.

 

[Teddy]

The thought behind the "Adaptable" talent was to give hybrid players a little help (and also folks who just want every drop of ATK or MATK they can).

Hybrid builds aren't that good currently, though, as stated in this thread. Next time we switch focus to the skills and talents, we'll have this in mind.

Equipment wise, one thing we haven't done almost at all is having armor catered to "squishy mages". Adding such options, giving virtually no DEF but a bunch of MATK might also encourage somewhat of a hybrid build, as having mage gear (which usually gives better MATK stats) but a warrior weapon (main source of ATK) should result in doing good normal attack damage as well as good magic damage. At the cost of becoming very squishy, of course.

Again, this kind of build isn't currently ideal, but we hope to achieve an equipment/spell ecosystem where hybrid builds will become a viable style.