Everyone's thoughts on the Muffin / Candy system.

[Own]

Seems like it would do well to have a thread devoted just to it, since everyone has their own thoughts.

The general idea is:

Muffin exists in rcade to provide Treats. Treats are essentially mini-cheats to make Arcade easier, decreasing your score.

Candy exists in Arcade to provide Tricks / Hexes. They are handicaps to make it harder for you, increasing your score.

The initial idea was brought up here: http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/more-ways-to-spend-essence-upgrading-npcs.3577/

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That's the base idea, here are my thoughts on it / the ways I'd enjoy it.

- You see (Tricks/Hexes)/Treats in a big rectangular menu as various pixelated sweets that can be toggled on/off, selecting them to light them up or dim them? Those that aren't unlocked are silhouettes. Select them to see their unlock requirement. That or just have a text list with an On/Off prompt to the right of each one.

- Optionally, you can just 'buy' (Tricks/Hexes)/Treats from them like you would from any other shop, but for no cost. These stay with you permanently unless 'sold' back to them. So long as they're in your inventory they're active. They can't be sold during the run.

- Candy and Muffin's stuff can't be mixed and matched. Either your run is made easier or harder, not min/maxing various cheats and handicaps.

- Muffin's Treats render you unable to get achievements? Otherwise all those unlocks would just be a matter of toggling all cheats on.

- Muffin doesn't exist at the start. Muffin appears after your first death, with a single Treat in his shop. Maybe, I don't know, killing a (non-summoned) enemy gives you +# HP. More Treats unlock the more you die, or the more you die in specific ways. This way new Treats come paced out, where they would individually be understood.

- Candy likewise isn't there at the start. You have to beat Floor 4 for Candy to appear near Muffin. Candy differs from Muffin in that her handicaps don't appear by dying, but from various objectives. And even then, you have to complete a goal with that individual handicap on to be able to toggle it on at any time, allowing them to be paced out and understood as well. Example, you beat Floor 4 and Cardless Candycanes appear as an objective unlockable, which makes enemies unable to drop cards. Beat Floor 4 with that active and nothing else, you can now mix and match it as you like. Score 1,000,000 points in a single run and Gritty Gumdrops appear as an objective, which makes every enemy an elite. Beat floor 6 with that alone active for it to be completely unlocked.

Or maybe that's a little too complicated, but anything that keeps people from just switching everything on at first seems like a good idea.

What about you guys? How would you like to see it added?

 

[The G-Meister]

Love the idea. Gives the Pros a challenge and the Newbies a chance.

More Treats unlock the more you die, or the more you die in specific ways. This way new Treats come paced out, where they would individually be understood.

I get where you're coming from, but I think it would probably be better to have them all unlocked from the start. I don't think incentivising death in Arcade is a good idea. If people have to die more to unlock more effective treats, it also kinda rubs it in a tad, like the game is really taking pity on you. Or maybe even have really easy challenges to unlock them to show you can put some effort in, with some interspersed ones you unlock from the start to make sure people can actually get to that point in the first place. Something like perfect guard 20 bees gives you the "All bees are a 1-hit kill" treat, or get up to a max HP of 200 gets you the "Halloweed card from the start" treat sorta thing.

Maybe only allow one trick or treat to be on at any one time? Otherwise there will probably be that one guy that find the specific combo that lets him get Bs and Cs in every room yet still get on the leaderboards... I guess it depends how they're balanced.

Candy differs from Muffin in that her handicaps don't appear by dying, but from various objectives.

You could possibly integrate in some of the quests that are already there. Defeating Red Gigaslime might unlock a new trick, or catching Luigi's butterflies unlocks the trick pertaining to speedrunning (maybe no shops/challenges/? rooms, with all normal rooms connected together without branches).

Other than those things, I'd be happy with the rest of it. I'm always in envy of your ideas

 

[Own]

I get where you're coming from, but I think it would probably be better to have them all unlocked from the start. I don't think incentivising death in Arcade is a good idea.

Overwhelming players who are playing poorly with a bunch of different variables isn't a good idea. Especially since, if their entire goal is "Beat Arcade Mode", they're just going to switch them all on ASAP and run through to the end. You can gradually give them the tools to do that if that's literally all that they care about, but letting it be an option from the very beginning is terrible for replayability. You might as well have an NPC in Startington offer to level boost you to 99.

Additionally, I don't think this 'incentivizes' death any more than Black Ferrets #2 incentivizes death by giving the boss -2% to all stats per death, stacking. It's not a reward, it's not something anyone would seriously use unless they absolutely needed it.

It's the game saying: "Okay, you're struggling to get to floor 4. Does '+HP gain per enemy killed' help? No, you're still dying? Okay, you're dying to elite enemies. Does 'No Elite Enemies' help? No, you're dying to bees. Does 'Bees Perma-Burn' help? No, now you're dying to boars. Does 'Boars Perma-Chilled' help...?"

You want to give people the tools to help survive or pass the exact situation that's roadblocking them, identifying and targeting the problems with precision. Not throw everything and the kitchen sink at them and let them toggle it all on without seeing what their problem is.

 

[The G-Meister]

You might as well have an NPC in Startington offer to level boost you to 99.

That would be why you'd only allow one on at a time. With the tricks it might be fun for an "Uber challenge" to have them all activated at once, but more than one treat would be literally removing the challenge. People might start to spot the pattern of "die y many times to x enemy" and get all the treats as quickly as possible, then whack them on and rush to the end.

I understand overwhelming them with all the treats all at once it a bit much, so at least giving them their options to start with behind a mini challenge would help that out a bit. Maybe perfect guarding 20 bees gives you a "Spiky Shield" attachment that does damage to anything that hits your shield for -x% score. This means they have to 1. find bees in the first place (even if you can find them in a floor 1 boss fight) and 2. learn to use their shield well. This in turn helps their understanding of the shield, while also giving them an upgrade that helps them get used to it, which can also be helpful for the rest of the mode.

P.S. Hmm... the "Uber challenge": All monsters are elites, there's a higher amount of them in each room, your movement speed and attack speed are permenently slowed and each boss has double health? Isn't that also a bit far? That's almost as bad as the Lost in BOI Rebirth

 

[Own]

I understand overwhelming them with all the treats all at once it a bit much, so at least giving them their options to start with behind a mini challenge would help that out a bit. Maybe perfect guarding 20 bees gives you a "Spiky Shield" attachment that does damage to anything that hits your shield for -x% score. This means they have to 1. find bees in the first place (even if you can find them in a floor 1 boss fight) and 2. learn to use their shield well. This in turn helps their understanding of the shield, while also giving them an upgrade that helps them get used to it, which can also be helpful for the rest of the mode.

Muffin exists specifically to help people who can't really play in Arcade for some reason or another actually play. He's a cheaty thing, in smaller ways than outright invincibility. Why would you require people who have shown repeatedly they can't shield to perfect shield again and again in order to not die against something that's been killing them the past 10 runs with no sign of improvement?

I don't think Muffin's treats should ever feel like a reward as much as one of Bag's tool tips, there only to help fix specific problems.

 

[Ardeof]

Overwhelming players who are playing poorly with a bunch of different variables isn't a good idea. Especially since, if their entire goal is "Beat Arcade Mode", they're just going to switch them all on ASAP and run through to the end. You can gradually give them the tools to do that if that's literally all that they care about, but letting it be an option from the very beginning is terrible for replayability.

If some choose to play that way then that's up to them. Not everyone enjoys challenges, some are just trying to get through arcade for the sake of the story. The story being the growth of the area and the addition of the NPCs. If anything having the options to customize how individuals want to experience their gameplay is great idea. You'll find that a lot of the great games offer this kind of experience to some extent. Having "templates" or "default settings" is also a must, for those who don't care about customization. "Randomize" in SoG kind of caters to the need of default settings. Not everyone wants to spend hours upon hours deciding how their character should look.

 

[The G-Meister]

Muffin exists specifically to help people who can't really play in Arcade for some reason or another actually play. He's a cheaty thing, in smaller ways than outright invincibility. Why would you require people who have shown repeatedly they can't shield to perfect shield again and again in order to not die against something that's been killing them the past 10 runs with no sign of improvement?

I was just trying to give an example. If you really can't even try to perfect guard at all, they don't have much hope. I mean that could be a completely separate unlock.

Additionally, I don't think this 'incentivizes' death any more than Black Ferrets #2 incentivizes death by giving the boss -2% to all stats per death, stacking. It's not a reward, it's not something anyone would seriously use unless they absolutely needed it.

I was getting the impression they would be displayed for unlock, with their criteria by it, much like Candy's ones. Still though, its practically hidden content. People are gonna leak it somewhere, with a guide on "how to get all treats" for the people that just want to rush through Arcade and be done with it.

How about treats can only be bought with essence? Teddy said Arcade could do with some ways to make the essence collection early game easier. Although I'm still against the permanent upgrades from the bishop, maybe they're cheaper than those because they give a decrease in score too.

If some choose to play that way then that's up to them. Not everyone enjoys challenges, some are just trying to get through arcade for the sake of the story.

They might want to play that way, but do we want them to? Not particularly. Really there isn't much story to Arcade mode anyway. If people want story, they'll play story mode. I happen to like a few arcade games and I liked the story, so I played Arcade for the Arcade part. I don't really get why you'd think differently unless you're trying it out to see what it's like. Arcade doesn't have as gripping a storyline as Story mode.

 

[loobiedoobie]

"They might want to play that way, but do we want them to? Not particularly."

That seems kinda harsh If someone wants to play a certain way they should be allowed too without someone coming in and being like "You're doing it wrong!" almost like a backseat gamer. xD If the choice was made that they wanna cheese arcade and get a "meh" score then all the power to them. I mean its arcade, so its about figuring out Your Own playstyle and stuff and if you don't have the skill to make it all the way through then hell yea you should be allowed to cheese it if it Really is proving too difficult for you.

Also I like the idea of having a list somewhere with the tricks and treats to show what all can be unlocked and requirements to unlock because even if I don't use them I still wanna go unlock them(or try anyway).

 

[The G-Meister]

Also I like the idea of having a list somewhere with the tricks and treats to show what all can be unlocked and requirements to unlock because even if I don't use them I still wanna go unlock them(or try anyway).

That's the completionist vibe I know some people have, and was exactly why I was making the point

That seems kinda harsh

I wouldn't say so. Arcade should be a challenge, and at the moment its a bit too much of a challenge for newbies. Making it too easy for them, however, is a little over the top. It shouldn't be a 1-run thing, it should take a good few hours of practice

P.S. If you want to quote someone's post, highlight it in your browser and a little "reply" button should pop up. Click that and it will insert the selected message where your cursor is in the quick reply section

 

[Own]

"They might want to play that way, but do we want them to? Not particularly."

That seems kinda harsh If someone wants to play a certain way they should be allowed too without someone coming in and being like "You're doing it wrong!" almost like a backseat gamer. xD If the choice was made that they wanna cheese arcade and get a "meh" score then all the power to them. I mean its arcade, so its about figuring out Your Own playstyle and stuff and if you don't have the skill to make it all the way through then hell yea you should be allowed to cheese it if it Really is proving too difficult for you.

I don't see how "immediately have all cheats available to switch on regardless of whether or not you need them, know how they work or if they're even necessary" is a playstyle, there's nothing to 'figure out' there like would be if they gradually unlocked. When you have a bunch of cheats offered to someone at the start of a game the tiniest bit of struggle tempts them to use them. Again, you might as well say someone who wants to start Story Mode at level 99 should be catered to with a visible option to toggle it on at the start of a game. That's not something most developers would want to advertise. It cheapens their game.

 

[Ardeof]

It cheapens their game.

Games are already cheap. Gone are the Arcade days of difficulty, with a few games being built in their remembrance. Nowadays games that are "pay to win" are being created. Such as Candy Crush. Utter trash games that are so basic that children probably can outscore their parents with enough tries. These kinds of games are successful. Or flappy bird, which is just a "Let's add in some old NES memories, and an ugly character I made and give it a very high difficulty repetitive task".

I would much prefer options of how I want to play the game. It's kind of why there are difficulty settings at the start of most games. Perhaps Muffin and Candy will offer difficulty settings that are different from adding numbers/enhancements to the A.I.