Fundamental problems of caster builds and how to improve those and enhance gameplay

[Kheb]

In this thread I'd like to discuss the matters of what is causing the fundamental and mechanical problems caster builds face. Also I'd like to suggest some reworking of abilities and enhancement of the options caster builds have.

First of all, in my opinion what is lacking mechanically is momentum.

Melee builds can reach very high momentum by Dash-canceling and from Dodging Strike. You play fast, you kill fast. Caster builds lack this good option cover both safety and damage. A caster should always be moving to not get hit . Running away is the first mechanical problem caster face due to them not being able to deal any damage while spacing correctly to avoid damage or suffer nasty movement speed penalties. Once a caster found a safe spot to attack he needs to charge a spell, the next mechanical problem. Now you could charge a spell for only one frame, but due to the already very low momentum it's not likely to be so precise and quick. Every frame you stand still enemies get closer and you waste time. Now for most spells the next problem is targeting. Again, this costs a lot of time or at least any momentum you've got since you waste frames doing nothing. Next problem some spells, like meteor, face is the projectile speed. After all the momentum killing from the last things I stated, the chance of the mob dodging the spell is way too high. if the mob moves diagonally you'd be almost guaranteed a miss.

So how to fix this? I don't think destroying melee to balance would be the right thing to do. Melee feels quick, strong, solid and fun. Also this the spell casting system is new, fun and very interesting so no need to destroy that either.

First, I think casters are badly in need for a viable movement option that benefits them on both safety and momentum.
My Suggestion is a skill like Teleport, with Teleport you can move safely to position yourself and by cancelling enhancing Casting/Movement Speed, EP regen, or like Dash' increased base charge. Piercing Dash needs you to equip a one handed weapon which would limit the casters option due to weapon type choice (like no cool big staffs) which would not fit a casting class in any game in my opinion.

Second, I think that casters are badly harmed by the movement speed penalties.
My Suggestion is not to remove this penalty but to enhance the skill book with a quick, cheap, decent damage dealing, small aoe, spammable, Magic Missile. Though, there is Fireball available that fits a typical caster, though due to it's high increasing cost it's not suitable for the amount of EP there is to spent. Either a rework on Fireball or a new skill needs to be added to fix this problem while preserving game mechanics. Either way there needs to be a missile that travels very fast, deals sufficient damage on possibly some more enemies, very low casting time (preferably only one frame) and has a low cost. This can also be done in way like Static Touch, though this one is ranged.

Third, due to not being able to attack with missile spells diagonally while monsters are able to dodge them diagonally the caster faces the problem of targeting.
My Suggestion is to give spells an auto-target function, targeting closest enemy first, it could be an option in the menu, or a homing function to make it easier to hit your enemies, spells like Meteor badly need this since it misses so easily. Another option could be to increase projectile speed which might look bad however will enhance momentum in return.

Further suggestions to improve building viability for M.Att users.

- Mid-Range Attack for Magic Weapons: This would be less complicated then implementing endurance. When using a staff/wand, you can shoot little magic projectile from it when using a normal attack. The damage is based on your MATK (instead ATK) and it pierces enemies. The drawbacks are, that it has no (or close to no) knockback and the attack speed is on par with two-handed sword. Like the name suggests, it only has mid-range. I would say double, maybe tripled range from two-handed sword. This way, you still have to be quite close in order to hit your enemy, but you're out of the enemies melee range at least..

This! This would enhance gameplay so much, increasing momentum for casters while also preserving precious EP and spammable options to maintain momentum after you've bailed out.

Also in WoW, where caster also suffer from mechanical problems like casting time, casters are compensated with Insta-Cast Spells, Auto Focus, Homing missile, damage, and procs to cast spells for free instantly.

Might be an idea to create (craftable) staffs that have a special effects that has the idea from Teylor and are able to proc a level 1 free fireball that scales 50% M.Att (Call it the The Summer Dragon Staff xD) or something like that.

I think that M.Att users could use spells from the Support Spells. Think about a small AoE, low damage dealing spell that heals allies that also stand in range, this promotes team play in a fun way as well as making Arcade mode more fun for people that do like to think of team builds !

Another suggestion that might work out and is a lot easier for our programmers is to decrease casting time and EP cost of higher ranked spells. Since highest charge you're most likely to get is bronze. The reason why bronze is the most viable is because all the trade-offs you make by charging up (killing momentum, EP and movement options) and is not promoting to use the charge system of this game.

To improve options for item choice I'd suggest a Talent that improves EP Regen, scaling with M.Att. Something like 'Inner Focus'. Increase EP Regen by 2% (+2% per talent level) for every point of M.att, max 5 levels. Casting Speeds needs a buff too so 'Mental Agility' Increase Casting speed by 2% (+2% per talent level) for every point of M.att, max 5 levels. Combining these two would work out as well I guess. This way you can focus on M.Att in your item build instead of trading a lot of damage for EP Regen and Casting Speed.

I might add more on this post in the future as well as fixing some writting errors.

tldr; Destroying Melee or Increasing Damage of spells is not going to work.

Disclaimer: I am aware that not everything is as horrible as you might think I say, however with the current discussions about balancing Magic I think it's important to also discuss the mechanical aspects of the game since I think that they greatly influence the game.

Cheers,

Kheb.

 

[Own]

As someone who has played the game a while, on Normal and Hard mode, to the end of Arcade Mode in 1P, 2P, 3P and 4P...

I honestly don't get why people think that magic somehow sucks at the moment. It mostly seems to be coming from people who try out "Mash Attack Button" Shadowclone, then try some spells and decide that magic is too slow. The only thing I'll admit is that it has poor EP regen for grinding.

Melee builds can reach very high momentum by Dash-canceling and from Dodging Strike. You play fast, you kill fast.

Make a video of you beating Arcade Mode this spammy build and I'll believe that magic needs significant buffs. Because those builds only work in Story Mode due to health drops. The game shouldn't be balanced around people just spamming melee skills up close because they don't care about dying.

Second, I think that casters are badly harmed by the movement speed penalties.

Movement speed used to be ridiculously slow while charging any skill. It's now almost too fast, in my opinion. If it's still feels too slow, that's why there are Talents to increase charging movement speed, Cards (boar) and items (Rollerskates).

My Suggestion is to give spells an auto-target function, targeting closest enemy first, it could be an option in the menu, or a homing function to make it easier to hit your enemies, spells like Meteor badly need this since it misses so easily.

I think only Meteor needs a lock-on-target function, nothing else. This is a skill-based ARPG, auto-targeting isn't skill-based.

 

[Kheb]

I honestly don't get why people think that magic somehow sucks at the moment. It mostly seems to be coming from people who try out "Mash Attack Button" Shadowclone, then try some spells and decide that magic is too slow. The only thing I'll admit is that it has poor EP regen for grinding.

Make a video of you beating Arcade Mode this spammy build and I'll believe that magic needs significant buffs. Because those builds only work in Story Mode due to health drops. The game shouldn't be balanced around people just spamming melee skills up close because they don't care about dying.

I do agree on the need for safety for Arcade. However due all the things I stated it's really hard to gain momentum. I think you underestimate 'spamming z' builds. You take a lot of risk, you play fast you kill fast. Yes, Health Orbs keep you alive in Story Mode, making it a lot easier. Though, I think that the current meta hasn't developed enough and players are not good enough to beat Arcade with Dash-Cancelling etc. I think that once players get better, 100% perfect guards, not reckless dashing into mobs, perfect spacing, consistent pg/shield attack-canceling out of a dash-cancel and when decent knowledge of fundamentals increases, magic get left behind in Arcade as well.

Movement speed used to be ridiculously slow while charging any skill. It's now almost too fast, in my opinion. If it's still feels too slow, that's why there are Talents to increase charging movement speed, Cards (boar) and items (Rollerskates).

On the part of increasing and maintaining momentum you're kinda forced to pick these. I think a builder game needs to promote freedom in builds and general viability instead of 'you can try but you'll need to grind a shitton of items first'. Movement penalties for casters is really bad since they need it so much for endurance since they're so frail. I think easier accessible movement options/bonuses while casting and after casting are needed to make Magic more viable.

I think only Meteor needs a lock-on-target function, nothing else. This is a skill-based ARPG, auto-targeting isn't skill-based.

True, auto targeting doesn't promote people to improve their skills. Though, due to diagonal moving without being able to attack in that direction causes you to wait or miss and therefor killing momentum, precious EP, time and fun. That's why I think that a homing function would be rather good. Homing does not mean auto-target, but allowing spells that you've barely missed (f.e. due to diagonal moving) still hit. Another option would be to increase AoE/model size for spells to have an increased chance of casting effective spells, maybe with a M.Att scaling penalty for every unit away from the center of the spell and maybe increase M.Att scaling for perfect aims (center hits), promoting people to improve their play.

Disclaimer: I am aware that not everything is as horrible as you might think I say, however with the current discussions about balancing Magic I think it's important to also discuss the mechanical aspects of the game since I think that they greatly influence the game.

 

[Ren]

I never felt like I couldn't cast fast enough or difficulty with spacing. I did feel a bit choked on EP , especially if running even one of the permanent summons. I'm not sure what the balance is though being able to spam a spell at range would be a bit overpowered. While a teleport ability would be neat (I always love me a teleport) but surely this would just also cost EP and break combat momentum anyways.

I don't think the weapon idea works exactly as described making a weapon scale with m.atk would break that build. You would just stack m.atk and use summons and the damage output would be ridiculous. It would invalidate a two-hand build completely. I do think adding at least a little more range to the wand weapons would be good, I just don't think you can have have it scale with m.atk, unless the scaling was nerfed compared to melee weapons scaling with normal atk.

 

[Kheb]

I never felt like I couldn't cast fast enough or difficulty with spacing. I did feel a bit choked on EP , especially if running even one of the permanent summons. I'm not sure what the balance is though being able to spam a spell at range would be a bit overpowered.

The only spell that suits fast play is Chain Lightning, though it's very weak. I'm not a fan of summons since it's dps output is quite low and since it's AI dependent your focus is not something that you can rely on, though it's easy grinding early on also since summons can actually function while lagging.

While a teleport ability would be neat (I always love me a teleport) but surely this would just also cost EP and break combat momentum anyways.

I disagree on the break on combat momentum since you can effectively space yourself as well as receiving a buff (I think improved casting speed would be the best option)

I don't think the weapon idea works exactly as described making a weapon scale with m.atk would break that build. You would just stack m.atk and use summons and the damage output would be ridiculous. It would invalidate a two-hand build completely. I do think adding at least a little more range to the wand weapons would be good, I just don't think you can have have it scale with m.atk, unless the scaling was nerfed compared to melee weapons scaling with normal atk.

Obviously, 100% scaling on m.att would be quite ridiculous. Though, stacking m.atk should be as viable as stacking p.atk which is by far the case on the current status of the game. And I'm pretty optimistic of having 2h-Staffs later as the game progresses. For wands I see quick, low damage. For Staffs I see slower but higher damage as well as increased range.

 

[Ren]

The thing is they don't need multiple spells that suit fast play. The point of having different builds is to support different styles of play. It is entirely possible that the intent for most spells to be a slower more deliberate pace of play. That may not be what you want it to be, but it doesn't mean it should be changed. Sometimes I like using spells playing slow and deliberate managing resources and other times I want fast combat.

I'm not sure how you anticipate teleporting not breaking combat momentum further, combat stops you expend some of your resource and you appear somewhere else on screen. That both ends you dealing damage, affects the resource you use to deal damage.... and moves you away from the fight. Helpful sure... gets you out of danger, helps you reposition, but still halts momentum.

Stacking m.atk if you had a weapon that also scaled with it is different than stack p.atk because you have summons whose damage is affected by m.atk. So you can drop plants, the cloud or ol' frosty and both your attacks and their attacks are buffed by stacking the single stat. That does not occur when stacking p.atk.

 

[Kheb]

Sometimes I like using spells playing slow and deliberate managing resources and other times I want fast combat.

Very good point, I totally respect your opinion. Though, out of my gaming experience I've found slow games, very, very, very, very, very, really, very boring to play. I like managing resources, unless it's slow which doesn't make it really challenging. I like to compare it to Super Smash Bros Melee and Brawl (Sm4sh wouldn't be a bad comparison either). Melee being a super fast, technical game. Brawl is slow and has very little technical aspects (due to consciously removing of these). This causes Melee to have been a very popular game until today and still is, while Brawl is still dying and recessing since the day it came out. I'm a big fan of Melee and I find Brawl very boring to watch or to play. I am trying to support enhancement possibilities for magic builds since I feel like playing (1h) melee is like playing Super Smash Bros Melee and any other build feels like Brawl.

I'm not sure how you anticipate teleporting not breaking combat momentum further, combat stops you expend some of your resource and you appear somewhere else on screen. That both ends you dealing damage, affects the resource you use to deal damage.... and moves you away from the fight. Helpful sure... gets you out of danger, helps you reposition, but still halts momentum.

I've got the feeling that you don't understand how this will enhance momentum. Being able to (shield cancel)->walk cancel after casting a spell/skill has very little effect on your spacing and also very little effect on momentum. Canceling this animation with a Teleport will speed up your play as well as giving you movement options (movement options=momentum). I feel like Teleport buff should look like: Increase EP regen by 30% while in animation and increase Casting Speed by 30% when canceled by a spell. I cannot see how you cannot understand how this greatly improves momentum, sorry.

Stacking m.atk if you had a weapon that also scaled with it is different than stack p.atk because you have summons whose damage is affected by m.atk. So you can drop plants, the cloud or ol' frosty and both your attacks and their attacks are buffed by stacking the single stat. That does not occur when stacking p.atk.

First, I don't see why you think Summons are that good (however, probably the best use for M.Atk), their attack speed and damage are quite sad, their focus is really bad and easily interupted. Second, P.Atk is the best stat for Melee, it greatly outclasses Attack Speed, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, especially when combined with talents like Backhander and Insult to Injury. Difference from magic is that any of the other stats are very decent as well, it all increases DPS by a lot. While magic needs more EP, more EP Regen, ALOT of Casting Speed to be viable in any sense (unless you like very slow paced play). More Casting Speed results into more need for EP and EP Regen. Then you need some m.atk to deal some decent damage which you will barely have the options for since almost every investment is in other stats.

I'd like to prevent a yes-no-yes-no discussion. I do respect your opinion though, prove me wrong .


Cheers,

Kheb.

 

[Eiroth]

I actully like the magic system, you just have to use the prismatic talent and switch up your casting. Besides, if you manage to avoid all projectiles, casting flamethrower basically means that you win, and it is really good against bosses.

I don't really think we need an auto targeting system, because as Own said, It's not skill based, and earth spike, unlike meteor, is actually quite easy to aim with. I do like the Idea of a teleport though, that would be fun to use.