Hard mode is too fast, enemies with too much health

[Megabyte]

Hello, everyone,

I saw this game on YouTube and I was really amazed by something that looks like the Secret of Mana series.
Hoping to have a challenge, I picked up hard mode.

The thing is, hard mode is hard in ways I was not expecting and that make the game not as fun.
As you can see in the title, one of the problems is that is too fast. For some reason, this is not so noticeable with regular enemies, but it is very noticeable in bosses. Not only that, but from the sentinel boss onwards, the game gets so fast that I can't even land a regular attack! I could only defeat the sentinel by using Cloud Strike and the snowman at the same time. It's so bad that I used a slow down utility to make the game 50% slower and I still can't keep up with the Enraged Toy Machine boss.

Now, the second problem: when you are on the same level enemies are, they have too much health. They have so much health, in fact, that normal enemies all feel like mini bosses. I feel this is not a very nice way to make a game harder. It just drags everything.

Speaking of the Enraged Toy Machine, one thing that complicates the fight is that reaching for all the controls in single player (hard mode) is very hard. Specifically, it's hard to figure out the right track in such a short time and reach for it, and the resetting of the whole track with the combined, large health of enemies makes this boss a drag to finish. Can I ask you to make this boss slower and to autosave to the second part of the fight when we get past the first part?

 

[Megabyte]

An important note regarding this issue: it seems that the more talents you have allocated, the faster bosses get.
I figured this out by using the chat command /respec. Suddenly, after only reallocating 9 points to Heroic Throw, I could hit this boss nearly to death.

Things got worse again by reallocating more points to passive skills (e.g, Last Stand). Then, I suddenly couldn't even pass from the first stage of the fight again.

I managed to beat Enraged Toy Magine by using /respec again and only allocating Heroic Throw and Last Stand. The fight got easier again and I managed to beat it to death.

Considering how much harder the fight gets, I believe this is a bug.

 

[Own]

Hoping to have a challenge, I picked up hard mode.

This is probably where you went wrong. The game warns you that Hard Mode is for second playthroughs.

Normal mode is designed so that you can get through it with pretty much any build.

In Hard Mode, the game expects you to know what you're doing. It expects that you're using your shield, that you have optimal gear and a well crafted build, that you're well familiar with enemy and boss attack patterns. That you're doing side-quests and using potions, possibly even hunting for cards if you're still struggling.

If you had trouble killing the presents and gifts to engage the puzzle phase of the toy machine due to health, I get the impression your gear wasn't optimized or you didn't have silver charge skills. It sounds like you're a magic user. Did you not have the witch hat, a ruby rod, brown/green robes, spectacles and two blue rings or better?

The picture in this topic shows the importance of gear: http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/magic-sucks.5239/

 

[Megabyte]

This is probably where you went wrong. The game warns you that Hard Mode is for second playthroughs.

Fair enough, but the game was running SO FAST I could barely stop. And I noticed this had to do with me equiping more talents. With my previous build, I was going for around 400 attack for the Enraged Train Machine.

If you had trouble killing the presents and gifts to engage the puzzle phase of the toy machine due to health, I get the impression your gear wasn't optimized or you didn't have silver charge skills.

It was not just due to health. The train sequence is hard to get done with one player. Theoretically, if you level up enough, you just be able to quickly kill the presents and try again. However, with my previous build – again, getting 400 points in one attack – I could take them down in 3 hits. This is not much, but the game is SO FAST in that boss that I could not decide whether I should get away from the train, bombs – which are not blockable, by the way – or the enemies. And since the train would come from both sides, I would panic.

It sounds like you're a magic user. Did you not have the witch hat, a ruby rod, brown/green robes, spectacles and two blue rings or better?

The picture in this topic shows the importance of gear: http://secretsofgrindea.com/forum/index.php?threads/magic-sucks.5239/

I read your link. The problem with a pure magic build is that it neglects defense. I was going for Thunder Strike + Whirlslash and a few passive skills. As I said before, the game got significantly faster when I got them all equiped, so my take is that it speeds up the more skills you have equiped – and maybe it speeds a lot in that section.

 

[Teddy]

There should be no increase in game speed based on talents or anything of the sort! You mentioned using a cheat program, perhaps that's what is bugging out?

Here is IHeartPie playing vs. the toy machine on Hard Mode:

Does that look significantly slower than when you are playing?

 

[Megabyte]

There should be no increase in game speed based on talents or anything of the sort! You mentioned using a cheat program, perhaps that's what is bugging out?

Teddy, I used a memory manipulation program specifically to decrease speed (and only for that) because I couldn't keep up with in-game speed. Even at 50% speed reduction, it was awfully fast. As I said above, I managed to get past the boss by using /respec and assigning all my points to Hero Throw. Somehow, the AI seemed to get dumber.

Also, please notice boss difficulty is unbalanced. For example, the Sentinel is MUCH HARDER than the GUN-D4M, even if you consider the bullet hell phase, which can be quite annoying.

Right now I must leave, but as soon as I arrive I'll watch this video and tell you what I think.

 

[Megabyte]

All right. Now, addressing what I said before:

Right now I must leave, but as soon as I arrive I'll watch this video and tell you what I think.

I just checked the video. Yes, it seems around the same speed as I played, at a similar level. And it feels so fast it's hard to keep up with. I'm not sure how, but during my winning run, the AI slowed down enough that I could knock it out just by using Hero Throw. It can't be the memory hacking tool, because I wasn't using it at this point (and I rebooted the computer before).

Can I suggest something though, Teddy? I think this game favors close-range combat a bit too much. There's just no competition to the range and damage 2-hand weapons do, and with Hero Slash and Hero Throw. Shadow Clone gets close, but these two feel much more effective. My suggestion would be to buff long-range spells, or maybe redesign long-range spells to be better. This would give us more diversified builds to play with on hard mode.

Also, regarding the Enraged Toy Machine, one way to balance out the boss and make it more interesting would be to make the presents vulnerable to the bombs set by the boss. I mean, boars can cause friendly fire, so why not this boss? This would allow players to create strategies to lure the presents to friendly fire and make this fight more interesting. And maybe decrease speed a bit. As I said, this is a very fast fight.

 

[Ardeof]

I've had similar experiences in games where I try to play at a higher level than i'm at too early. Sometimes the videos make it seem like it's easy to do. The main reason the video seems a bit slower paced in comparison is because 100% of your focus is placed on watching the video. But then when you have to keep track of all of the input and positioning etc., the game seems to go a lot quicker. Fortunately Grindea, for me, was a sidestep because of other fast-paced games I play (LoL, Age of Empires II, etc.).

It'll take time to get used to Secrets of Grindea's rate, for sure. I think you'll find that over time the game's pace will seem a lot less daunting as you memorize skills and such, meaning you can focus on enemies more often.

 

[Megabyte]

I've had similar experiences in games where I try to play at a higher level than i'm at too early. Sometimes the videos make it seem like it's easy to do. The main reason the video seems a bit slower paced in comparison is because 100% of your focus is placed on watching the video. But then when you have to keep track of all of the input and positioning etc., the game seems to go a lot quicker. Fortunately Grindea, for me, was a sidestep because of other fast-paced games I play (LoL, Age of Empires II, etc.).

The video feels about as fast as what I played, to be honest. Also...

It'll take time to get used to Secrets of Grindea's rate, for sure. I think you'll find that over time the game's pace will seem a lot less daunting as you memorize skills and such, meaning you can focus on enemies more often.

Interestingly, only the bosses seem to be so fast-paced. Some are faster than others. For example, the Autumn & Summer bosses are much slower than the Enraged Toy Machine.

 

[Teddy]

Perhaps you should consider changing to Normal? It sounds that you play on Hard because of some principle rather than because that's the difficulty you need to enjoy the game!

Most people would agree that Grindea on Normal is rather challenging compared to the default difficulties in other modern games, where "Normal" is basically Easy. There's no shame in starting out on Normal and then playing again on Hard, in fact that's the intended route for all but the most masochistic players.

 

[Megabyte]

Perhaps you should consider changing to Normal? It sounds that you play on Hard because of some principle rather than because that's the difficulty you need to enjoy the game!

Because why not? Although some challenges, such as the bullet hell, or some bosses being so fast, are unexpected.
Also, I don't think some of the patterns from normal would work on hard. I've seen some of the videos of the Phaserman in normal, and his bullet pattern is very different from hard. That in itself is a good thing; I'm sick of bosses on hard being just swap-colored versions of themselves with stronger attack and health.

Most people would agree that Grindea on Normal is rather challenging compared to the default difficulties in other modern games, where "Normal" is basically Easy. There's no shame in starting out on Normal and then playing again on Hard, in fact that's the intended route for all but the most masochistic players.

It is what you intended, fair enough. But can I still ask for more balanced long-distance builds? The most effective long-distance weapon we have is the arrow, which can only be sparsely found. It would be nice if we had stronger long-distance spells.

 

[Own]

Summon Plant: Silver Charge will win any battle in the game for you. All you have to do is build a garden and keep avoiding enemies. (In fact, with proper talents this is one of the most broken builds in the game, given that you don't have to actually interact with the battle at all. You just have to dodge it. The only reason people don't use it is because certain melee builds top all magic builds in terms of speed.)

Fireball packs a powerful punch at a range.

Earth Spike can be spammed up close or guided from far away.

Summon Insects can stack on an enemy and devour their health, all you have to do is keep running while throwing them accurately.

 

[The G-Meister]

Summon Plant: Silver Charge will win any battle in the game for you. All you have to do is build a garden and keep avoiding enemies. (In fact, with proper talents this is one of the most broken builds in the game, given that you don't have to actually interact with the battle at all. You just have to dodge it. The only reason people don't use it is because certain melee builds top all magic builds in terms of speed.)

Combine this with Static touch and the Second Wind talent and you've got a build that lets you fight melee, ranged or both depending on your situation. I've 100%ed Hard with that build in 38 hours when it usually takes about 40-50 (for the current build anyway).

 

[Megabyte]

Combine this with Static touch and the Second Wind talent and you've got a build that lets you fight melee, ranged or both depending on your situation. I've 100%ed Hard with that build in 38 hours when it usually takes about 40-50 (for the current build anyway).

What build would you recommend that focuses only on ranged attacks (not melee)?

 

[The G-Meister]

Still that one. You'll wanna put talents into Second Wind, Prismatic, Arcane Charge, Manaburn and anything else that might give you more MATK, but primarily focus on EP and EP regen. When using skills, alternate between plant summon and static touch to get the beset EP usage, and wear +EP regen items when grinding.

Not only does it let you fight ranged, melee or both, it's also probably the strongest ranged build in the game. Grinding becomes a breeze (expect in Tai Ming) if you know what you're doing.

 

[Own]

Don't forget Arcane Collar. Plants count as a proper summon.

 

[The G-Meister]

Meant to put that instead of Arcane Charge!