One of these things is not like the other things.

[The G-Meister]

One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you guess which thing is not like the other things, before I finish my song?

Well, for a start, it's a skill. The one people bypass because it looks like a bit of fun and not a particularly good skill to actually use. The one that got added a short while back in replacement for another skill, yet everyone went wild about the other new one and let this one gather the dust. The one that is now a major component of my mage build, making grinding over twice as fast by itself. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you:

Summon Plant



I love the fact that you can run around an area, growing small plants that smack the crap out of everything… but that’s the issue – they smack the crap out of everything incredibly well, in fact, too well. The season temple room northeast of the central room has become a breeze to grind in (as you might have seen from one of my statuses, I managed to get all the 6 OP hats within an hour. It took over 10 hours in that room with another character and I only ever got 5 of the things.) In the present room that farts out gifts at a rate of 1 a second it’s possible to keep the presents down at a steady number. I can stand still and put plants down in the Pillar Mountains and hardly take a wince of damage. What’s more is, I can do all of this on hard mode.



I'd been grinding in this room for about 15 minutes, and I think I beat the record from the number of presents in one room after I'd died. It's not hard to top it though.

Something’s broken, and as sad as I don’t want to see it change, it needs to. It’s a balanced arcade build as it takes a short while to set up, and it’s also not amazing against most bosses. The place it isn’t balanced is when grinding in story mode, in moderately small areas. The easiest area is by far the Mountains, then the Toy Factory, then Séasònnë, then the Temple of Seasons, then the Flying Fortress, then the Pumpkin woods (so much so that it’s literally useless there).

My aim with these suggestions is to balance out these areas, hopefully making it better against bosses, but at the same time make it almost equivalent with my original mage build. This way we are hopefully left with a moderately balanced skill that’s fun to use, and fair to play with.

Firstly let me go over what’s good, and what should be changed. I like the high damage, it makes the plants seem stronger, fierce and more appealing to use. I like the duration they stay around, reinforcing the point before. I also like that it’s automated, which in some ways is rather OP, but we’ll get onto that later. I also like that the plants are placed in front of you. This is what makes it a dangerous skill to use – I had to pump my movement speed while charging a skill to make sure I didn’t die from melee attacks while trying to place them.

I like the EP cost and charge time, seems good to me. Finally, I like that they don’t block EP. Going for a more manual system means they’re easy to relocate, and is very anti-AFK. However, this then brings up the issue with every magic build – the amount of plants you have is governed by your EP regen, which much outweighs any MATK you could give to your character instead.



What I don’t like is how quickly they attack (just look at the picture above), which in my opinion will have much less of an effect on players’ minds if nerfed (as in, I would think “oh it’s a bit slow but it does loads of damage,” rather than “oh it’s really weak no point in using that.”) I also don’t like Boss Plant. Yes, he (She? It? Do plants even have genders? (Technically they’re both male and female, so I’ll go with he)) is a boss, yes he looks badass, but he sits there with two bouncers that do quite a bit of damage with his attack speed buff, and they don’t cost any EP to keep around! Even then putting plants around him just makes it more OP.

There’s a few other miscellaneous things I don’t like, but we’ll get on to those in time. Anyway, here are my improvements:

Nerf everything

At base charge, with pumped MATK, one little plant will do more damage over the course of its lifetime than a silver charge Earth Spike or Meteor. That’s too far. What would be a reasonable proposition (well, to me) would be to cut the damage by about 10%, but cut their base attack speed by about 30%, for all three types. This brings them down to a reasonable DPS, while not being too terrible.

Change the abilities of each plant level



The base charge at this moment is much more powerful and useful than the bronze. It’s definitely not worth the extra time charging the spell to put down a slightly bigger one that slows enemies and lasts longer – you’ll take twice the damage in that time. What might be better is having the base charge do half the damage, but have 25% extra attack speed, and deal some knockback, without interrupting attack animations. The Bronze charge plants are the ones which do the actual damage yet do not have their slow-down ability, and means you can’t just spam the small ones everywhere and win (like it works in the Toy Factory).



This turns it into more of a tower-defence like system, whereby you can put down a few of the smaller ones to protect you from incoming melee attacks, allowing ranged builds to get some nice clean attacks off, yet if you want them to do any damage, you have to protect yourself with the smaller ones in order to not take any damage while placing the larger ones, giving use to both the base and Bronze charge.



Projectiles will ignore this system completely, until you get to the Silver charge. I like that there’s a ranged option, but they’re also too OP, seen as they track enemies like a sniper. After the attack speed nerf, they’ll still be very good at killing other ranged enemies – they already decimate Wisps, Lantern Jacks and Season Mages. My proposition to combat this is to reduce their aim a little, making them less likely to hit these three, seen as they’re fast moving. Furthermore, make it so if one of their shots happens to hit a projectile from any monster, they both get destroyed. This makes them less effective if their shots hit the other shots, while keeping you safe. However this could be an issue against FaZeman and GUN-D4M. Perhaps their projectiles are too resilient and can’t be cancelled out.

A different idea for these could be that they hide when enemies get near, like the scaredy-shrooms in Plants vs Zombies. This means that you will HAVE to protect them with the smaller knockback plants if you’re to sit around them.

Nerf Boss Plant



The easiest way to do this would be to make him block EP, but seen as we already have the other nerfs, it then becomes pretty reasonable. Or we replace him with a…

Manual Plant Turret

This would work by using the Gold Charge, and it grows a stationary turret possibly for 0 EP and it disappears when you get off of it, or have a set EP block and it will stay there, doing the move-thing like boss plant does when you re-cast gold charge. When placing it the first time you will hop straight onto it. Holding the attack button makes it fire roughly three projectiles a second, each at the cost of like 2 EP. The projectiles are as strong as the ones fires from the Silver charge pepper-like things if not 10-20% stronger, yet they do a meh amount of knockback and cancel attack animations.

You can use the move left and right keys to rotate it anticlockwise and clockwise respectively, and it turns pretty quickly. While on the turret, you can charge plant summon and place down plants a little further away than normal to keep any melee enemies at bay. If you shield while on the turret, it disappears or stays there, as explained above. Holding the plant summon button and attack cancelling near the turret will put you back on it, if it does the EP- blocking option.

Well, sorry for the long read, I tried to put some pictures in to break it up. Having wrote this out in Word beforehand, the word count totals about 1400 words. Thanks for listening to my opinions ^-^

Regards,

G <3

P.S. @GoodStuff, in case you ever wanted repayment for discovering your secret, I guess you could say this one is mine

 

[Ardeof]

You're making the claims but I don't see any math involved. This could have just been some lucky RNG going on.

 

[The G-Meister]

Get in multiplayer with me now Molten_Marrow on Steam

[Edit]: In case you're not available, you don't need maths, you need experience. I often favour my mage build over any 1-h or 2-h build, and when this comes along and tops all of them, there's some unblanace going on. Yes, there's always RNG involved but killing a season knight/mage every 1.5 seconds is much faster than killing one every 10

 

[The G-Meister]

One thing I forgot about was that the Flower whip makes them last longer. They're still too OP without it, but if none of the other nerfs are added, at least change that one

 

[The G-Meister]

After our multiplayer session, Ardeof mentioned a couple other things which I forgot to say why it wouldn't be a good idea to add them.

One idea was to give the plants health. The upside to this means that if you are camping around them, and they take a hit or two, they disappear. This mean that in bosses, where they aren't that useful, they become more balanced. The downsides are that is becomes much less appealing to use straight away. Depending on the situation, it might make them completely useless. In bullet hell fights there's so many projectiles they'll become worthless, yet against enemies like Vilya who mainly target you and you only, a silver charge turret would get 10 shots off nice and cleanly. It will also only have an effect in the short run, as your first few plants might get battered down, but once you've got all 5 of your silver charge turrets down, they decimate so well that nothing ever gets near them to knock them down again. However, to remedy this -

Make the plants attract enemies towards them. This allows all plants to be knocked down without discrimination. This won't solve the issue - only make the skill even more divided. It means you either have to sit by your plants and defend them via other means because they're too weak to keep themselves alive. I'm not against this - I like multiple skills being integrated as one compliments the other. What this doesn't do is keep their original use. If they're too weak to keep themselves alive, what's the point in using them at all? The point would be to put one down in a corner to lure enemies out the way so you can use your other ranged magic skills on them. Once the plant dies, put another one down where you are, and move away again. Even if you don't use a ranged magic skill, you can use it to lure a few enemies out the way for a few seconds to lighten up the enemy load on you. They become hostages for your own safety, used only to keep yourself alive (which would be more of a separate skill in itself) as oppose to cute little grass blades which gently caress their enemies to death.

 

[Own]

Random thoughts from skimming through:

At base charge, with pumped MATK, one little plant will do more damage over the course of its lifetime than a silver charge Earth Spike or Meteor. That’s too far.

Burst damage vs DoT is a balancing mechanic. Something that does 100 damage instantly can't be compared to something that does 200 damage over 10 seconds. Nor can something that has limiting factors (enemies must be near it at all times) be compared to something without those limitations. If anything it's too weak for it's tiny radius. It'll do steady damage to Gundam's head or Toy Machine, but that's about it.

In the present room that farts out gifts at a rate of 1 a second it’s possible to keep the presents down at a steady number. I can stand still and put plants down in the Pillar Mountains and hardly take a wince of damage. What’s more is, I can do all of this on hard mode.

This is because you've overgrinded to the point where past enemies are no longer a threat to anything. It shouldn't be used as an indicator of balance for anything. Except on Beastmode, I guess. If enemies steadily gained levels (without increasing EXP payout) the longer you grinded in an area this would solve that, but, eh.

The same holds true for Frosty Friend, Cloud Strike or any skill when you're built for the endgame of the current build. Especially coupled with a special weapon designed specifically for boosting that one skill.

Grinding something implies that what you're killing is no longer a threat to you in any way, so it's difficult to balance against content you've already shown yourself ready to move past. All skills should only be balanced for the level you're supposed to be at in the story, to me.

The easiest way to do this would be to make him block EP, but seen as we already have the other nerfs, it then becomes pretty reasonable.

His EP cost comes when he's first summoned, where he doesn't do much since he's stationary which is a terrible downside if you're fighting anywhere that isn't an Arcade-sized room, or want to kill things on the go. Constantly resummoning him is a tedious timesink. That's why I don't play with plants. The fact that no Arcade top scorers nor Story speedrunners use plants show me that it isn't an OP skill at all, except when grinding... in which case it might be slightly faster than spamming gold whirlslash everywhere.

Manual Plant Turret

SoG's combat system is based around constant movement. Dodging, shielding, repositioning. Something that locks you to one position is an inevitable position to get from and seems... inelegant?

One idea was to give the plants health.

This would vastly make them OP, since they essentially become a Decoy spell. Putting a bunch of plants down to draw enemies away from you and deal damage to them, while you kick back and throw other spells from a distance would make them the snowman. And people already use the snowman specifically because he takes damage for you. The fact that he deals damage is just a nice bonus, he'd be a staple in any Flamethrower build even if he just dopily pranced around getting beaten up.

---

I just don't see why anyone would call for nerfs on a skill that no one really uses. Especially because of it's poor first stage, which is why people get rid of it ASAP usually. They don't bother sticking around to see if the awful basic/bronze charge gets better at silver.

 

[The G-Meister]

Random thoughts from skimming through

If you didn't skim through you wouldn't have had to write as much

Something that does 100 damage instantly can't be compared to something that does 200 damage over 10 seconds.

Very true, point made. Seen as I seem to have done a poor job of explaining, I'll put up a comparison video in the next week or so. If not, just hop in a multiplayer game with me when I'm around. It's definitely faster than the whirlslash, but I'm not sure if it's as safe.

This is because you've overgrinded to the point where past enemies are no longer a threat to anything.

I also didn't give a comparison here (sorry, again my bad). My normal mage build is no way near as good as this. I could hardly keep down to a steady number at all with that, and with a blade flurry build I kept it stable at about 15. This keeps it at less than 8 if you do it well (on hard mode mind you, where bombs explode if you hit them and each present farts out three bombs).

His EP cost comes when he's first summoned, where he doesn't do much since he's stationary which is a terrible downside if you're fighting anywhere that isn't an Arcade-sized room, or want to kill things on the go.

Point, but boss plant as an idea is a little naff. It just gives plants the ability to move around a bit, and buffs their stats. That's what talents do, not skills. Compared to all the other Gold charges it's a little lacklustre really. He also insentivises putting plants in a small area, which doesn't help this expand out as a skill.

SoG's combat system is based around constant movement.

And boss plant basically locks you into an area, which you strafe around and put plants down. I spose so does a turret, but I guess my ideas aren't really up to scratch.

I just don't see why anyone would call for nerfs on a skill that no one really uses.

I'm assuming we're trying to reach a level where each skill works just as well as any other in (almost) any situation, and for that reason I was addressing the issue of it being too OP when grinding, and too useless in other areas. The suggestion about changing the abilities of each plant level would probably make it more useful, even as a one-point skill (like I use shadowclone for the extra stun frames.) I doubt it will have much of an impact on bosses though.

This would vastly make them OP, since they essentially become a Decoy spell.

Mentioned that ^-^

If anything it's too weak for it's tiny radius.

True, but when you can spam 5-6 of them down at any one time, they do a good job of racking up some damage, especially when they can hit multiple targets. This would again be addressed by changing the abilities of each plant level.

 

[Ardeof]

What both are thinking about HP: "erg it'll have lots of hp, be a decoy". Well monsters in this game barely land attacks anyway. Especially with Frosty Friend. That decoy goes down very quickly as is, now imagine a clump of plants getting AoE damage. You'd have to replenish more often than not, which would make a person have to strategize where to place the plants and whatnot. Adding HP is the most straight-forward option without removing the stackability, damage, accuracy or range of the plants. Keeps all of the features but makes stacking them together not as strong of an option.

 

[The G-Meister]

Keeps all of the features but makes stacking them together not as strong of an option.

Silver charge plants? The ones that shoot from a distance and mow down pretty much anything before it even has a chance to attack? I even gave you the demonstration. It doesn't matter how much HP it has, it's gonna die of boredom or lack of attention before it dies from being attacked. Set a couple of those buggers down, watch them mow off most of the enemies while you pick off the ones they can't reach - a decoy.

 

[Ardeof]

The Mob had plenty of time to attack the plants if they had hitpoints.

 

[The G-Meister]

If they had little enough health to make killing them a reasonable solution in this situation, they'd be worthless almost everywhere.

 

[The G-Meister]

Well monsters in this game barely land attacks anyway. Especially with Frosty Friend.

Frosty follows his attacks through, as in he moves with them - out the way of the attacks coming after him.