[Suggestion(s)] Passive skills

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by Orion, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. Kana

    Kana Rabby

    umm...
    @The G-Meister :D
    In your "Reckoning" paragraph you mentioned that you think a support should be able to provide one player's worth of damage output. But that doesn't make sense to me. Would they then not simply be a "damage class" that can also support?
    I can understand that damage is ultimately the best thing to have, since putting the enemies hp to zero is the only way to win in Grindea. But that doesn't mean that it has to be done all at once.
    What about the additional damage that the 3 melee players can put out under the assistance and favorable conditions a support can provide?
    It seems that you don't like the idea that a player would be weaker by themselves, but in essence, isn't that what a support is? A character whose power is in helping others do better, and, consequently not themselves?

    About EP blocking, I think that makes sense if it is for an ability that is otherwise still channeling after it is used; still outputting your power. When I said 'longer waits' and 'shorter effects' I was alluding specifically to cool-downs. If support abilities turn out to be by nature- 'OP', make it so you can't use it no matter what for a while, and still be able to support and be creative with other abilities. Who doesn't wanna mix-and-match some effects all at once? Of course, the output of your abilities should still be limited by EP, no real big changes (I think).
    By 'shorter effects', I think how powerful a utilitarian ability is should be determined by how much you can get done with it once it's activated. So ultimately, it would be under-powered, until you learned how to fight an enemy.

    ps. thanks for all you said in response and the link
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  2. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    No problem!

    What I meant by one players worth of output is that, even in support skills, the player who chooses support should not be able to give themself or the team any objective advantage over them playing melee. For example, in a very rough and purely theoretical sense, if a support player debuffs themself by 30%, that 30% power should distributed among the other player(s) such that it's still 30%. That way you end up with 2 players still providing 2 players' worth of damage output. This means a support becomes optional not obligatory. This should ideally take effect in the skillpoint sense as well, such that skills don't get more overpowered the more players there are. I wrote a bit more about it in this post here.

    In terms of me thinking supports should be nature be underpowered to make others more overpowered, I didn't like the way you were talking about it in your previous post. While I'm not opposed to the idea, it feels like debuffing yourself to buff others would make support skills more valuable in multiplayer than singleplayer (even with what I said above, which was simply an example for argument's sake). The way I see it, a support should be underpowered in the sense that they don't have any specialisation in ATK or MATK, rather than in the sense that they have to actively debuff themselves to make their effects work.

    Imagine you cutting 50% of your ability to fight in return for the person you are supporting getting 150% aibility to fight. That's significant enough for them to rely on your supporting and you to rely on their protection. If we're not careful, this leads to further specialisation of your extremes and you relying on each other even more, which will be difficult to re-adapt to on the off chance you take your character back into singleplayer for both of you.

    I can elaborate further over the weekend if necessary. I'm also currently in school on my phone so this post hasn't been spellchecked.

    Hopefully you see where I'm coming from :oops:
     
  3. Kana

    Kana Rabby

    I totally agree!

    This is why I think that support abilities should usually be single target. It's more fun and personal, and doesn't effect balance according to the number of players! To be able to use lots of things to match the situation, but not spam individual ones.

    But, a different idea that might please both of us, is to be able to target yourself (with the single target support buff), effectively giving yourself the "sacrificed" power back, and be viable on your own. It should still be difficult, having to prepare your buffs and attacks separately, instead of having your teammates do the attacking for you.
     
  4. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    Oh yeah I'm all up for targeting oneself with skills. Technically, if someone's put a point into a support skill then that skill would provide an extra "theoretical damage%" buff due to that spent point. It's just the case of does that extra % be large and you don't debuff yourself when you cast, or does it be small and you do debuff yourself?

    The only reason I can think of why a large % extra buff and a self-debuff wouldn't work is because that extra % becomes very significant for someone who's already got a significant buff (even with the fact that an extra 5% on top of 130% is actually only a 3.85% increase from the original percentage, because I'd assume we'd use percentage points not actual percentages. Exponentials get out of hand very quickly).

    A correction :oops:

    I'm gonna correct myself a bit here. I have previously said that we should encourage support players to take part in active offence, rather than force them. However, some of the examples I've given can technically be either depending on the point of view. This is because the two things really lie on a scale, and the "encourage" example is simply less forceful than the "force" example.

    Another correction :rolleyes:

    The other thing is a WIS stat. I realised in the shower yesterday why percentages aren't a great way of doing things. Say we have a level 20 support player and a level 10 mage. A percentage buff of the mage's MATK is going to be a lot less significant because that mage is only level 10. This means that, for all the extra skill points the level 20 support player has in support stats, they'll only end up buffing them self because they then receive their skill points' worth of buffing.

    This is a very extreme example sure, but it's something that's bound to happen at some point. Now, I guess I'll expand on how it could be implemented in the current system, and if it's worth adding new items just to buff WIS. Finally I'll add some extra comments on if a complete gear system rework might be able to incorporate this WIS, as well as provide better gear variation for the current game, support skills or no.

    Adding WIS to the current system? o_O

    First off, why WIS? Google defines wise as "having or showing experience, knowledge, and good judgement." which is exactly what an experienced support player does, but just because someone is wise doesn't mean they help others with their wisdom. Maybe ALT for altruism ("disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.") or COM for compassion ("sympathetic pity and concern for the sufferings or misfortunes of others.") might be a better description. Who knows :p

    Anyway, onto gear. Firstly, is it worth adding new items to buff WIS?

    Maybe? There's definitely a lot of gear around already, and it might not be worth adding even more stuff, especially if we want to fit all different combos of builds (DEF + WIS, ATK + WIS, MATK + WIS, HP + WIS, etc.). For each new stat we add, the combinations of builds rises exponentially :confused:

    Secondly, is it a good idea to add +WIS to current items?

    I wouldn't say so. It's the simplest solution, sure, but it's perhaps a bit too simple. If we don't change the gears' current stats to compensate for the extra WIS, a support won't even be underpowered by nature, because of all the extra stats they'll get. If those stats do get knocked, support will become necessary to be played, due to the extra +WIS you've got. I'd say we leave this solution out, unless anyone can improve. Finally...

    Complete gear system rework? :eek:

    Gotta love them controversial reworks, yo! Basically, what I'd propose is that, instead of having most items being tailored to +ATK builds, +MATK builds or +WIS builds, they all provide varying amounts of each. So for any new item that makes you stronger, it should have +ATK, +MATK and +WIS. However, it should be small in a couple of them and good in one, or equally good at all three. That way, hybrid builds are encouraged (and helped towards begin more viable, seen as they aren't particularly atm) but people can still specialize if they want.

    Further examples would be anything that makes you faster should have +CSPD, +ASPD and perhaps +move speed while casting/shielding. Anything that makes you more durable should have +Max HP, +DEF and perhaps even +shield HP. Anything that makes you stronger could also increase +Crit chance and +Crit DMG. Finally, anything that give you more EP flexibility should have +EP regen and +Max EP... or maybe those could be incorporated into the things that make you faster.

    Items then go up in "tiers" of power. EG, the sandals (tier 1) in the Pillar Mountains cave give you a bit more DEF than Max HP, but the Slime Ring (tier 2, could be renamed to "Durable Ring") ups both of those a bit, and the Red Necklace (or "Sturdy Necklace", also tier 2) adds more Max HP than DEF. So for each new tier you go up, the player's overall "percentage durability" increases, but the proportions of each stat can vary between items.

    Well you said reworks are controversial :bag:

    One could argue that the current system already does this in a way. Each individual item tends to buff primarily ATK and melee, MATK and ranged, or something like DEF and HP. The odd thing has buffs for both ATK and MATK. However, builds instead use the combinations of different bits of gear in the 8 slots available to make a hybrid build.

    Yes, this is very true. However, again, I'll bring up that the "unrestricted skill tree" is one of the game's selling points. Currently, most of the gear is categorized in the categories mentioned above, so you have "ATK specialist" gear or "MATK specialist" gear. Reworking the system as described categorizes the gear such that, on the outside, it looks like you're getting gear that favours a particular playstyle rather than a particular set of stats (ignoring the fact that MATK is primarily ranged and ATK is primarily melee), while also incorporating this WIS stat.

    It can also provide a nice summary for people. Each piece of gear is labelled with it's tier and a summary of it's stat proportions and the category of buffs it gives:
    • Sandals - Tier 1, Durable (DEF)
    • Slime Ring - Tier 2, Durable (DEF)
    • Red Necklace - Tier 2, Durable (HP).
    • Red Ring + Purple Ring = Fierce Ring (which also buffs WIS) - Tier 2, Strong (General)
    And this is what will encourage hybrid builds more. Another thing is we can then compare different buff categories in the same tier. Players know that if something has a certain tier, it will provide just as much buff as any other piece of gear as that tier. Again, we'd use that "theoretical damage%" (that I've talked a lot about already) to compare things.

    Yet more words :fish:

    I really think this could work. In fact I've kinda hyped myself up now, which is a shame. It feels like it'd be something that's gonna have to sit in the Dev's ideas bank and ferment while the rest of the story is finished, yet I really, really want it now. It just feels like this rework would be too good.

    Someone please crush my dreams. Kana. Own. Ardeof. Anyone. Tell me why this would be terrible so I can stop feeling hyped and enjoy the game as it is >.<

    ~G <3

    P.S. If you despise the emojis at the end of each heading, please say so, because I feel they make the sections below them look more appealing to read, and therefore am going to do that for every one of my longer posts :D
     
    Kana likes this.
  5. Kana

    Kana Rabby

    At this point, I think we have a lot more to agree about than you give me credit for, but, I'm also becoming aware that our disagreements are what are important (per se), in this thread, so I'll just have to get over that.:oops:

    Most of what you said about statistics I could barely follow. And I don't think I'd have much to add anyway, you seem to have put a lot of thought into it!;)


    But I think there are always somethings worth considering over base statistics, especially in an RPG that lets you create your own encounters at your own leisure. This is the thing that I'm willing to argue with you over. (fistycuffs!):p

    Most RPGs are not real-time, emulating chess to maximize each player's thought process without the pressure of time limits. You can't simply run away from danger until you feel like fighting, and you can't out-heal the enemy until it is easy to attack. You take turns. You can't hit them, and then run away, without the possibility of them hitting you back, and then come back fully healed. That concept isn't OP in just Grindea, it's overpowered (and gimmicky) in anything.

    Both damage output and damage recovery (healing) are limited by being forced into the same box as the enemy. You have to fight, now.


    This is why, in Grindea, or any RPG that is real-time 'live-action', damage out-put is limited by having to walk up, line up your attack, or aim your attack, avoid any enemy attacks along the way, and then hit them.
    Damage recovery, is limited in various ways in other games. Limited use after a checkpoint,(DarkSoulsthanksTeddy, Zelda), cool-down timers and cast timers, and recovery timers (PvP MMOs, FPS), as well as fragility, limiting how involved they can be in a fight, forcing them to back up and limit their healing on a skill-based level.
    Heck, this is also why objectives were added to fighting games. Sure, you can run away and heal, but you lose the game LOL.

    Healing has to be limited in some way (lest unlimited running away means unlimited healing:eek:), and all of the above are good examples. No statistical change is going to balance out the possibility of infinity (not that stats aren't needed, you go ~G!)

    However, it might be difficult to add new mechanics (as far as I know it could be an overhaul), So why not get damage-recovery(or damage-negation) the same way you get damage-output?o_O (working around enemy mechanics, learning them)


    To reiterate, all support abilities could follow these guidelines, in order to balance out player-number problems.


    There are other factors though! A support has to spend extra time "supporting" themself, and possibly leave themself vulnerable to enemies that have nothing else to 'agro' towards. They also don't have powerful damage abilities to combo the buffs with, so buffs will still be weaker on them.

    A support should not have damage numbers in their favor EVER (can we agree on that?) but that doesn't mean that they can't potentially be as good at defeating enemies.
    There is no such thing as damage numbers in chess, or real war, or weeding your backyard. (though they all have casualties) So when I imagine the support looking at everything he can help with, but not face head-to-head them self, I think of a general viewing a battlefield.

    Strategy and tact (and wuv) should be the first thing in a support's head.

    My point is: Shouldn't the mechanical changes of support be fleshed out and implemented, before statistics? (dreams crushed?:rolleyes:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  6. The G-Meister

    The G-Meister Giga Slime

    I remember establishing a couple misunderstandings on Discord with regards to this topic. I believe @Kana thought I was still only referring to healing, but I was talking about all support skills except healing. I think we also concluded the above post was a little difficult to make sense of, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to reply to - mainly the question at the bottom:

    This was what I said on Discord, and is my attitude to balancing for this game: "it requires development time even to create a skill that'll get dumped after a hint of something being OP" "If we can eliminate most posibilities of skills before they're even tested, the game gets dones quicker"

    That is the most common problem (if any) people have with this game - it's taking a lot of time to complete. I would be a lot more inclined to allow the testing of different types of healing and/or support skills if those people didn't have some unwritten time point at which the game will comes out. On the contrary one could argue that all the time the devs spend reading this discussion is time that could be spent implementing things to test, but if the things aren't particularly balanced, well thought out or simply not even thought of in the first place, this much feedback about those skills would be needed to make them balanced.

    The gear system rework I proposed I think would shave enough time off of adding WIS to the current system that it will efficient for the developers time.

    And holy shit am I linking things back into the problems some people have with the game. I've finally realised how to get a point across :D
     
    Kana likes this.
  7. Kana

    Kana Rabby

    This is good, so I should establish that I didn't think that ~G was only referring to healing. Quite the contrary. I mean to avoid speaking only on it myself. However unlike ~G, I am still an advocate for healing, and how if it (and other support/passive skills) were treated more like the other skills, it could be balanced. I am ready to clarify, but my first post on the previous (2nd) page is a good place to start.

    However, I don't think healing is something that can figured out completely at this stage though, I imagine that ultimately, even deciding how a healing skill could have a place (it currently doesn't at all) will rely on a full understanding of how all of the other skills are polished.

    So, like ~G, I think it's best to put it aside and focus on figuring out non-healing support skills.
     

Share This Page